Evidence of meeting #128 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was funding.
A video is available from Parliament.
6:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Gentlemen.
Mr. Wernick, just stop for a second.
Mr. Wernick, I'm going to give you a moment to respond. We have issues with interpretation and the interpreters.
Mr. Desjarlais, you had a final word there. I'm going to allow Mr. Wernick to respond briefly, and then we're going to move to the next person.
I gave you more than your time.
6:30 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Will he answer the question?
Does he assume that all indigenous people are Canadians for the purposes of sovereignty and jurisdiction of Canada?
That's the question.
6:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
I believe he did answer.
Mr. Wernick, I will give you not a lot of time, but I will allow you to respond for the record, please.
6:30 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
The constitutional framework, including sections 25 and 35, includes the inherent right to self-government by indigenous peoples, which has been interpreted in various ways by the courts. It is given expression by specific agreements, treaties and legislation.
6:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you.
Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you have the floor for two minutes.
I'll then ask the analysts a question or two, before wrapping up the meeting.
6:30 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Wernick, I was pleased to hear you quote France's position of non‑interference and non‑indifference with regard to Quebec sovereignty. I understand that you support Quebec sovereignty. I'm delighted to hear that.
6:30 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Not at all.
6:30 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
If Canada is divisible, so is Quebec.
6:30 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Okay, so you're a proponent of partition. I can't believe it. However, this does speak to the nature of Canada. Partitionism has sparked civil wars all over the world. I'm taking note of what you just said. It's an extremely dangerous statement. I'm taking note of it in front of everyone. I hope that the record will show that this is how the former clerks of the Privy Council for the federal government think and feel. It's disgraceful.
I have one final question.
In Quebec, the Aboriginal Savings Corporation of Canada invested $28 million in loans from capital collected through first nations' savings bonds. You asked earlier where this money comes from. It comes from savings collected by first nations in first nations communities, in their private markets and in specific markets. These initiatives have helped build hundreds of homes, and further investment is required. This type of information comes from the Yänonhchia' program.
Of course, Quebec has the full capacity for self‑determination. In her report, the Auditor General notes that Quebec is doing much better in terms of indigenous housing, for example. That's a fact.
To that end, don't you think that Canada should be inspired by the Quebec model and how we treat indigenous people, meaning by mutual agreement and as kindred nations?
6:30 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
It's a possible solution. Will it work in every other province or part of Canada? The first nations will have to decide.
6:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you.
I have a question from the chair.
Mr. Wernick, I think you've given us a lot to consider here today. This is not testimony that certainly I as chair had expected. In fact, your comments reminded of when I went to study 15 years ago at the London School of Economics, which was well regarded as a bastion of left-wing thinking, supposedly, or so I was warned. When I arrived on campus, I discovered that the school was rooted in the belief that private property was fundamental to building. I think you've touched on that today.
Here's a question I have for you that I'd like a response to. During your time as Deputy Minister of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development, the government was focused on creating economic opportunities in the resource sector and first nations self-government accountability. It has been argued that those priorities led to systemic underfunding of basic public services, such as housing and health and education, especially in remote communities where the cost of providing these services can be significantly higher and where there may not be significant administrative capacity or economic activity.
How do you respond to this criticism? Please provide any thoughts you have on it.
6:35 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Well, I think there are many things in there. The fundamentals about communal land tenure and social housing I've commented on before. You're always going to be working around, in that sense. There are initiatives out there, like Manny Jules' property ownership initiative. I know that the Nisga'a people have decided to create a form of private tenure within Nisga'a lands. There is all kinds of experimentation.
I think a lot of these have to be community-led, to be very clear, not government-imposed, but government can remove the obstacles. I think you should be looking at all the obstacles to community empowerment and economic development. There has to be income and economic life in communities for them to be healthy and have good social and health outcomes. That's true for all Canadians.
You're not going to like this, but in my view, looking back on it, the Harper government was fairly ambitious on structural reform but very stingy on funding, and the Trudeau government was very generous on funding but has very little to show for it in terms of structural reform. One of these days we'll get a government that wants to do deep structural reform and fund it properly.
6:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much. We all appreciate your time here today.
I will now adjourn this meeting. The subcommittee will reconstitute itself in just a few minutes.
Thank you again, everyone. We do have votes at 7:30, for those who might not be looking at the emails.
This meeting is adjourned.