Public Accounts Committee on June 4th, 2024

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

That's interesting.

In fact, earlier, we heard an interesting comment, particularly from Chief Lance Haymond, that truly bears repeating: Indigenous people have the ability, especially if given the opportunity, to build and finance their own housing, through programs and projects like Yänonhchia'. It works very well. It's one of the reasons why Quebec stands out from the rest of Canada. In Quebec, it was also difficult to access capital. That's why we created funds like the Desjardins ones, with money from ordinary citizens, such as small farmers. In the same way, projects like Yänonhchia' are seeing the light of day.

Don't you think that the federal government should simply take inspiration from this kind of project and stop investing a lot of money in projects where it takes on housing construction itself without producing any results at the end of the day? Wouldn't a total paradigm shift be in order?

[Michael Wernick]

Where will the capital come from, if not from the Parliament of Canada?

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

It will come from the indigenous people themselves. Take the example of Desjardins in Quebec, which collects money from individuals to fund projects. The same goes for Yänonhchia'. This initiative gives indigenous people the opportunity to fund their own projects.

There are also partnerships. It's worth noting that entities such as the Fonds de solidarité FTQ and Desjardins could contribute to these types of projects and programs. Their vision is different from the vision of the traditional big banks, which doesn't apply.

[Michael Wernick]

I couldn't agree more. Removing or reducing the barriers that prevent communities and their governments from accessing private capital and financial markets can yield excellent results.

However, there are barriers. For example, the Indian Act is one barrier to obtaining guarantees, mortgages and insurance in particular.

Everything being done in Quebec amounts to a type of workaround.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

Up next, we have Mr. Desjardins for six minutes, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Mr. Wernick, for being present with us today.

You have had a long career. I'm sure it's been subject to polarization from all parties, especially as a former member of the Privy Council.

You have a reputation in indigenous country of being someone who has largely sustained the persistent issues that plague indigenous communities today. We heard from the Auditor General in her opening remarks on this report that this is the fourth time since 2003 that we have raised concerns about housing in first nations communities, and 20 years later, many of these concerns persist. Despite these audits, we find that Indigenous Services Canada and the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation have made “little progress” to support first nations in improving housing conditions in their communities.

What responsibility do you bear for any of that?

[Michael Wernick]

Sheila Fraser wrote a wonderful piece on indigenous policy and services to first nations in the six-page preface to her spring 2011 report. I commend that to the committee and to anybody who is watching. She identified four structural barriers to making any progress on services to first nations.

The first is a lack of a legislative base. The second is a lack of clarity about service levels. The third is a lack of an appropriate funding mechanism. The fourth is a lack of organizations to support local service delivery.

That's as true now as it was in 2011.

I also commend to you the report of this committee from February 2012 in response to that report. It called for structural reform—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

How did you respond to that first part? In the huge amount of time you've been responsible for this work, how did you respond to those claims?

[Michael Wernick]

I think people who are in those positions will work with their ministers to do the best they can with the tools Parliament has given them.

If you want to go through all the things that my four ministers and I were able to accomplish between 2006 and 2014, I'd be happy to. That is, if the chair will give me the time.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

You obviously claim victory for some of those things. You're talking about a great list. I'm talking about the other list, the list that first nations communities submitted in relation to the immense failures, so I don't think we're going to get a response from you today that will address the dissatisfaction indigenous people experience with INAC and its former entities—including the entities today. Nonetheless, it's important for me to highlight this paternalistic attitude that continuously placates indigenous communities today. One of the gentlemen who was just present here today said he's been involved in this work for 36 years and hasn't seen any substantial movement or direction in the attitude of civil servants, in particular the deputy ministers—and you occupied...over one-third of that time—toward any substantial change to your own perspective.

To be very frank, Mr. Wernick, you're not an expert in the lived experiences of indigenous people. You're an expert in advising the government on the legislative frameworks that are asked of deputy ministers, and the Indian Act is an example of that. You know, we see, many times, instances when—on termination policy, for example—you would have been subject to these ideas. Harold Cardinal, a famous philosopher and indigenous person in my community.... The last time a Trudeau tried to tell first nations in Alberta, “We're going to do away with the Indian Act,” he responded with the “red paper”. Have you ever read the red paper?

[Michael Wernick]

I assume that's a rhetorical question.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Well at this point, given your record, I don't know if you've actually read it. It's a real question: Have you read the red paper—

[Michael Wernick]

Of course I have.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

—and have you listened to the concerns of indigenous people? When you say things so flippantly, like, “Let's just do away with the Indian Act, and let's give 10 years, as a blunt instrument of force, to set a timeline on the future of indigenous people,” why would you respond that way if you've read the red paper?

[Michael Wernick]

You are the Parliament of Canada. There are 41 million Canadians, but only 338—soon to be 343—of you, to change the legislation.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I'm not the one recommending we abolish the Indian Act in 10 years and set a clock on it.

[Michael Wernick]

You don't have to take my advice. This is truth to power: If you want the results, you have to get rid of—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I want to know why you're advising something so ludicrous as to set a time frame like that.

[Michael Wernick]

Is that your party's position?

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

What if I set a time frame on you and say, “Your rights will be exterminated in 10 years, and you deal with it, Mr. Wernick”?

[Michael Wernick]

There would be an exit strategy, self-government agreements and other kinds of legislation. We've been trying exit strategies for the last 30 years, and you are the one pointing out the lack of—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Where does the perspective of an exit strategy...? Why does that perspective exist?

[Michael Wernick]

With negotiating agreements with specific self-governments. You know that there are over 630 distinct first nations, over 70 tribal councils, about 50 regional and provincial organizations and three national organizations.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

It's clear to me why this is failing. Your attitude today, even.... You haven't learned anything in your time at Privy Council and as a deputy minister, and the results are clear. Over 20 years, Mr. Wernick, and you claim no responsibility...and today you have the audacity to come to this committee and set a time frame for the abolition of indigenous rights, claiming there's an exit strategy in the future, even though you read the red paper.

I don't have any questions, other than to say—

[Michael Wernick]

I didn't say there was an exit—