Public Accounts Committee on April 5th, 2022

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Okay. That's good to know.

That works out to be perhaps—my math is stuck now—1,100 divided by four, or one-third. Okay, I got it. I think the public has the number in terms of how many travellers are entering our country and going into different communities with a positive result.

I will turn the rest of my time over to Ms. Yip.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Dong.

My question is directed to Dr. Kochhar. This is in regard to your opening statement.

What mitigations or plans has PHAC developed and implemented to identify the impacts of border measures on vulnerable groups, such as seniors and those who have medical conditions or challenges?

[Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar]

Our efforts have been very much focused on what to do in terms of training our staff to make sure they have a clear understanding of who they're dealing with within the population. Specifically, as I mentioned earlier, there is a component of CBSA and making sure we have specialized training on that.

The other part of it is also focused on making sure that we are clearly making all attempts to learn the lessons, which we have done in terms of what transpired in the last year and a bit. Based on what we've seen in terms of compliance, in terms of the tools and in terms of any other opportunities, we can then make sure we have a clear understanding of what it means for those who are vulnerable and those who are of a particular group, and design our programs accordingly.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Are there any additional supports to help seniors who may not have digital literacy?

[Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar]

We're always very focused on making sure that there is an optionality available should there be.... For example, as Mr. Chair has mentioned, we insist that all information be captured in ArriveCAN, and that ArriveCAN be the tool that is used and available. If the person is unable to use that, there are options available, paper submissions and others. That is done at the discretion of our CBSA colleagues at the border.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

I now give the floor to Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné for two and a half minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to correct a fact so that the Canadian and Quebec population are aware of it. The quarantine was imposed in March 2020, but it was in October 2020 that the flexibility measures that Dr. Kochhar mentioned were put in place. I would add that it is more “humane” than “humanitarian” to let people, especially after 10 or 12 days of isolation, go to say goodbye to their loved one or even go to a funeral.

Months later, this had not yet been done. Policies are being put in place without first thinking about special cases. I see this as a problem, in that corrections and improvements to public policies are always made later. When I say “later”, I don't mean the day after and the day after the policy is announced or implemented, but four, five or six months later.

I want to make it clear that the flexibility that we are talking about was applied in very specific cases, for humanitarian reasons, among others, or for people in rural communities, and that it was done very late, and even too late, in many cases. This has led to psychological and physical consequences that are going to last a really long time for many people.

I would like to ask Dr. Kochhar a question.

Dr. Kochhar, I would ask you please to answer only yes or no. Do you think, particularly as a result of my comments, that there is room for improvement in terms of the implementation of health measures by the Public Health Agency of Canada?

[Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar]

Mr. Chair, the answer is very much yes. There's always room for improvement, and we learn our lessons as we move forward.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

To be honest, that is the answer I was expecting.

In closing, I would like to reiterate that, with all the mistakes that have occurred in the implementation of this kind of measure, we are still not in a position to provide the provinces with their fair share of health transfers.

Yet what is done by the federal government is not always done right.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Finally, Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for two and a half minutes. It's over to you.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and again, thanks to all the witnesses for being present.

I know that this is a difficult discussion, considering what our country went through. To summarize on behalf of so many Canadians, it's been challenging not just for folks travelling, but for every Canadian, including every member of this committee and, I'm sure, everyone at the Public Health Agency of Canada. Thank you for your work.

I also want to commend the Auditor General and her office for this work, because of course this is a damning report. It's not good, what we're seeing here. We've seen two audits during this period of time, and improvements that are critical to ensure that we have a nationwide process, not just for tracking and monitoring but for enforcement. In order to build confidence on behalf of Canadians in our systems moving forward, could the Auditor General comment on the practices of other jurisdictions, perhaps jurisdictions of similar size and similar scope to Canada, that have done enforcement better, and which jurisdictions those might be?

[Karen Hogan]

That's a really difficult question. To make that analogy, every country is quite unique. We could look to a country that's an island on its own, like Australia, which did really well with enforcement at the beginning, but it's easy to control access. Canada has a very large land border. There is so much uniqueness with every country that you need to factor in, and you also have to factor in the rate of people being vaccinated, so it's a nuance.

I caution the comparing of apples to oranges, but I do think it's important to compare to other jurisdictions to inform how to change or improve the border measures that we might use going forward.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Particular to the hotel quarantine system, have other jurisdictions done the hotel quarantine system much better, particularly in enforcement?

[Karen Hogan]

I'm not sure I could answer that.

I don't know, Carol, if you have a question...whether you looked at hotel enforcement in other jurisdictions. Can you add to that?

[Carol McCalla]

We did look at enforcement in other jurisdictions. Many other countries required their travellers to quarantine in government-approved hotels. Travellers were generally expected to stay in their rooms at these facilities for the duration of their quarantine, and they were not allowed to be mixing with other guests. Generally, they were required to stay there for the total duration of their quarantine, not just the three days—not just the initial first days after arriving in Canada—that was unique to the Canadian program.

We looked at PHAC requirements, and they based them on a pilot study they had done on the incidence of positive tests among air travellers entering Canada. Other countries that we looked at included the U.K., Australia, New Zealand, Israel, Singapore and Norway. They had greater success in keeping track of their travellers, and that could have been attributed to the travellers having to stay at the hotels longer.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

I want to thank the witnesses. This was an interesting report and, I must say for the Auditor General and her team, I suspect a more difficult report to review, because often the auditors general are charged with ensuring that we receive maximum value for our tax dollars, but of course in this case you have the rights of Canadians across the country to offset that.

On this, I'm going to close by quoting my favourite civil servant, Sir Humphrey Appleby: “It is not for me to comment on government policy. You must ask the minister.” On that, I think it serves to remind us that I think everyone has done a good job today in answering questions, and the Auditor General has as well in assessing the government policies. If members have had a problem with those policies, the decision is not for this committee, of course, but for the government at large.

Thank you very much for appearing today.

Our next meeting, on Thursday, will be on “Report 14: Regional Relief and Recovery Fund”.

With your permission, I look to adjourn the meeting. Thank you.