Evidence of meeting #134 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbsa.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
I'm sorry, but my time is limited and you're not answering my question.
I want to know why you didn't raise the alarm when there was evidence of misconduct, instead of asking for that evidence to be provided to the very people who were accused of that misconduct. That makes no sense, Ms. Daly.
As an Individual
Again, I will refer back to my role as a senior adviser. We in the government must adhere to the terms and conditions of contracts. Do you agree?
As an Individual
No, but I'm asking the question because we have a duty to correspond only with the contract of record. In this case, that was Dalian in joint venture with Coradix.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
That is precisely why Botler AI executives criticized you. They were supposed to do a contract directly for the Canada Border Services Agency, but their signature was forged so that they would become subcontractors. That was Botler AI's first allegation of misconduct. That's exactly it. It's not normal. This allegation of misconduct should have been reported to your superiors.
Ms. Daly, I think you're telling the truth about a lot of things. However, I think that misconduct has been committed and that there are two possibilities: Either you were asked to turn a blind eye, or you yourself did not raise the alarm as it was your duty to do.
So what happened?
As an Individual
First of all, if they had said that they had forged résumés, I don't remember receiving any correspondence from Botler AI in 2021 about forged résumés. I want to be clear about that. I'm not even sure that this is what they said at committee. I could be wrong.
Second, if they had said to me that it was a forged résumé, I would have gone back to the contractor and asked what was going on. The contractor, Dalian in joint venture, said in committee that they received the résumés from their subcontractor.
I don't know what their business is between other suppliers when they make arrangements. It's not my business. My business is to make sure—
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
That's all for now.
Thank you, Ms. Daly.
Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné, you will have an opportunity to continue in a few minutes.
Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for two and a half minutes. You'll have another opportunity after this one as well.
It's over to you.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I want to continue on with the line of questioning from my previous round related to the misconduct.
Ms. Daly, I agree with you, largely, in your comments, but I don't agree with your summation of what qualifies as misconduct and what your responsibility is, whether you're a low-level public servant, as you called yourself, a medium public servant or even a deputy minister. The responsibilities under CBSA policy require that, if any instance of a misconduct report is made to any person, including you in your position, it should be reported. You failed to report it.
I'm not saying that you're responsible, of course, for the gross negligence that took place, including at TBIPS. I agree with you that we need to conduct a very serious review of TBIPS and how companies like GC Strategies, a two-person company, could have gotten on that list. I'm saying that this is a very good example of systemic corruption where small pieces and the firewalls between them have isolated public servants to the position of not knowing whether or not something is misconduct. It's clear from your testimony today that you don't actually see this as a level of misconduct. Failing to report a serious allegation to a superior didn't in your mind meet the threshold to report a misconduct.
That's not your fault alone. It's the fault of your managers. It's the fault of the managers above them. Ultimately, it's the fault of whatever is happening at TBIPS that would have initiated this level of corruption.
That is my summation of what we've heard today. I fully take your recommendation that there should be a serious review of the TBIPS list and how suppliers got on that list. But there also has to be accountability with regard to the fact that there are policies in place that govern public servants, all public servants, and that, in the instance of a serious allegation like that, of a contractor not knowing they're a subcontractor and only finding that out after raising the alarm that they're not getting paid, it directly resulted in this issue and in why you're here today.
I fully appreciate your testimony, Ms. Daly. Your recommendations I also appreciate. What I ask is that this committee take serious consideration as to how GC Strategies was able to continue in this relationship when misconduct was in fact raised and the policy failed to be adhered to, wouldn't you agree?
As an Individual
I would agree that everybody should get paid for the work they do, and honest efforts were made with the contractor of record, which is Dalian in joint venture. This was offered to Ms. Dutt, if I'm not mistaken, and you'd have to go back to what I left on the GCdocs.
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Did you confirm any of the details as to whether or not GC Strategies had subcontractors?
As an Individual
Honestly, it's way above my pay grade. The people working with GC Strategies were the CBSA IT people.
NDP
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Mr. Desjarlais, I will come back to you. You'll have another opportunity, but your time has ended.
Mr. Barrett, you have the floor for five minutes, please.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Ms. Daly, have you reviewed the testimony of the government officials related to ArriveCAN?
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
What about Cameron MacDonald? Are you familiar with his testimony?
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Do you find it to be credible?
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
What about Anthony Utano?
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
What about CBSA president Erin O'Gorman?
As an Individual
I do find it interesting that, in a January 18 committee, Ms. O'Gorman was asked by Ms. Vignola of the Bloc, I believe, whether she knew of any person who was being investigated or was facing reprisals for whistle-blowing. She said she did not know. I'm paraphrasing here, but Ms. O'Gorman made that statement, and yet, here I sit.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
We'll circle back to that.
Former CBSA president John Ossowski also testified. Are you familiar with his testimony?