Evidence of meeting #134 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbsa.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Ladies and gentlemen, I know it's warm in Ottawa. This meeting has been proceeding exceptionally well. I would like to get through Ms. Daly's testimony. She has come in here today to talk about her experience.
Mr. Barrett, you have 30 seconds. The floor is yours.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Well, let's back it up to the start of the interruptions, and we'll take the full 45.
Ms. Daly, Ms. Khalid has gone to great pains to try to say that it's not her government that's responsible for the $60-million fiasco of arrive scam, which saw Liberal insiders getting paid while Canadians had to pay for it. They want to lay the blame at the feet of yourself and other public servants at your level.
Is the minister not ultimately responsible for what happens in the department—yes or no?
As an Individual
A minister is accountable to Parliament for the actions of their department or agency—
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Thank you very much, Ms. Daly.
That, Chair, is exactly why this Liberal government needs to be held accountable. That's what our function is here, even if Ms. Khalid and her Liberal colleagues don't like it.
Liberal
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much.
We will now turn to Ms. Hepfner.
You have the floor for five minutes. It's over to you, please.
Liberal
Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON
Thank you, Chair.
I want to thank our witness, Ms. Daly, for being here.
I know that this has been a bit of a difficult experience for you overall. You talked about being humiliated and publicly called out. You talked about dealing with cancer. I just want to appreciate that you're here giving us testimony despite what a trying time it's been.
You mentioned also that you are being investigated with regard to the code of conduct under the procurement process. Could you describe for us or maybe just summarize what that code of conduct says?
As an Individual
I couldn't just off the top of my head. It has to follow along the lines of integrity, client service and that sort of thing that PGs must adhere to. I wasn't in a PG role at that point. I was a senior adviser in an administrative role.
Liberal
Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON
Would you be able to tell us whether any values or ethics training is available to officers or to staff members in a procurement office?
As an Individual
There used to be. Treasury Board used to have an actual training program for procurement designation. Treasury Board may want to look at that again. I believe they disbanded that a year or two ago, maybe in 2021. It might be worth insisting that it become a mandatory program, but not just for PGs. I want to make this clear—not just for PGs. It would be good for managers who actually deal with contracting, because a lot of what we learn as PGs is that most of the issues are in the contract management stage.
Liberal
As an Individual
I've had values and ethics training every year.
As an Individual
I would say that some people who have issues with the values and ethics should take an in-class version of that.
Liberal
Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON
Do you think Public Services should have more authority or oversight?
You mentioned a couple of times in your testimony that you didn't give advice, but do you think you should have been able to give advice?
As an Individual
It wasn't my role. They had opportunities. Everybody within CBSA has the ability to go to CBSA procurement to ask questions.
Liberal
Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON
Can you explain to this committee what ghost contracting is?
Liberal
Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON
Thank you.
What are the rules around subcontracting, as far as you're aware?
As an Individual
That's a business rule, and this is the contention. In industry, if they decide to go into business together, that is outside the purview of the Government of Canada. Maybe the Government of Canada might consider looking at that as an issue for procurement and consulting industry on how best to manage that, since this is contentious.
Liberal
Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON
Right.
You have mentioned a couple of times, and I think you've given us a little insight into the fact that TBIPS—I'm sorry, but I don't know all these acronyms.
As an Individual
It's the IT professional services.
Right now, just so we're clear, task-based informatics professional services are task-based contracts. They are pre-qualified every year. There's problem number one.
If you were to have audit processes.... In committee, there has been raised—I think it was Mr. Genuis who actually raised it with ISC, Indigenous Services Canada—a question about consultation about indigenous firms, which is a big thing for procurement, and I truly believe it is very important. There should be a checklist and an audit of those firms that indigenous organizations are involved with in the consult to establish it and how—
Liberal
Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON
That's great insight.
What do you think it would take to make those reforms? Is it something that can be done quickly? Is it something that can be done cheaply, or is this going to take a lot of time and a lot of effort?
