Evidence of meeting #135 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was appointed.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
I have a very brief amount of time left.
I appreciate the answer that you're looking for more information from Mr. Boissonnault.
How can you be assured that you're receiving information from all of his text messages? We know that he used the app called Signal. We know he used other text messaging apps.
Are you certain that you have the messages from all of the messaging applications that he used, including Signal and any other instant messaging application?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
We specified in the letter that we want any means of electronic communication between the two of them, whether it's, as you say, Signal, Skype, telephone calls or whatever you use.
Once I get that information, I will be able to exercise my judgment as to whether there are reasonable grounds to suspect that there was an involvement of Mr. Boissonnault and therefore launch an investigation or really that his name was being used in vain by Mr. Anderson in order to give extra credibility to his emails.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
I appreciate your answer. Thanks.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you. That is the time.
Ms. Shanahan, you have the floor again for five minutes.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Thank you, Chair.
Wow. This is very interesting.
If the Conservatives were not so obsessed by pursuing their own convoluted conspiracy theories and narratives and attacking members of Parliament, especially members on this committee, at every turn....
We see the partisan objective of the members who are making these accusations. We're all big boys and girls and we can all play in that arena, but when it involves independent officers of Parliament—and we just heard the commissioner saying that he is disturbed when he hears of fellow independent officers raising the alarm that their work is being interfered with or could be compromised—then I think we need to take heed.
Indeed, I want to finish with the letter I was reading earlier from the RCMP commissioner. It says:
The RCMP will continue its review of available information that does not give rise to concerns under the Charter to determine if sufficient evidence exists to launch a criminal investigation. I would like to emphasize as well that the RCMP is operationally independent and strictly adheres to the the principle of police independence. In a free and democratic society, this ensures that the government cannot direct or influence the actions of law enforcement and that law enforcement decisions remain based on the information and evidence available to police.
Am I to infer by the comments of the members of the Conservative Party that they would interfere with police investigations? That is what I am hearing.
I want to continue in French, because I know that my fellow Canadians are very concerned about what's happening today.
I'm going to read excerpts from the letter the RCMP commissioner sent to law clerk and parliamentary counsel Michel Bédard.
The RCMP has also reviewed the implications of the Motion in a potential criminal investigation. Before taking any investigative steps to access documents that may give rise to a reasonable expectation of privacy, the RCMP must comply with applicable legal standards to preserve the viability of any potential criminal investigation or prosecution. The Parliamentary production order does not set aside these legal requirements. For the reasons set out above, the RCMP's ability to receive and use information obtained through this production order and under the compulsory powers afforded by the Auditor General Act in the course of a criminal investigation could give rise to concerns under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It is therefore highly unlikely that any information obtained by the RCMP under the Motion where privacy interests exists could be used to support a criminal prosecution or further a criminal investigation. ... There is significant risk that the Motion could be interpreted as a circumvention of normal investigative processes and Charter protections. The RCMP will continue its review of available information that does not give rise to concerns under the Charter to determine if sufficient evidence exists to launch a criminal investigation. I would like to emphasize as well that the RCMP is operationally independent and strictly adheres to the principle of police independence. In a free and democratic society, this ensures that the government cannot direct or influence the actions of law enforcement and that law enforcement decisions remain based on the information and evidence available to police.
It's very important that we as parliamentarians consider and respect what I just read out. Unfortunately, on other occasions we've seen that the opposition is searching for scandals in such a partisan manner that we risk turning away from all the good legal and investigative practices from our Parliament and all the institutions we've put in place.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much.
Beginning our fourth and final round is Mr. Brock.
I understand you might be sharing your time. Would you like me to let you know when you're halfway, or are you going to hand that off?
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
On behalf of the Conservative Party, I am so sorry that we have offended Ms. Shanahan in our job in terms of holding this government to account in discovering and exposing corruption at the highest level. If that's offensive to her, so be it. That's our job.
Commissioner, on the issue regarding Randy Boissonnault, I appreciate you have only reviewed the actual newspaper story of the report. You didn't actually listen to the committee. You didn't read that transcript. Is that correct?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
That's correct.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Are you prepared to do that, given some of the concerns that have now been raised?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
As I mentioned, the reports—
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I am concerned because he may have admitted he lied. There are emails that have emerged that accuse Randy seven times, etc.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
He was also supposed to provide the committee with additional emails, additional documentation and, actually, the identity of the person who he claimed was autocorrected nine times. He failed to comply with that order of committee.
Does that concern you?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes, of course. We hope it concerns you, too. We're talking about parliamentary process here, not my investigation.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
It would be naive for all of us to only conclude that what you received from Minister Randy Boissonnault were all the devices that he had access to. He could have accessed a burner phone that he never supplied to you. He could have used another communication app that he never supplied to you.
You agree with me, sir, that there are still ways of communicating that he did not supply to you. That is possible, is it not?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
You are assuming here quasi-criminal behaviour. I want the evidence. Once I have the evidence—
Conservative
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Of course there are burner phones.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Do you believe there are communication apps other than Signal and WhatsApp?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I just answered the question from your colleague. I said that, for any kind of information, let me have the response from Mr. Boissonnault, and then I will decide whether it is credible and sufficient or whether I need any more evidence. Then, if—
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Hypothetically, assuming you conclude that Minister Randy Boissonnault has breached the act, what are the consequences to him, briefly?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
First of all, I would have to begin an investigation. If the investigation came to that, I would make a public report and I would send it to the Prime Minister. It would be up to the Prime Minister to decide what to do.