The Auditor General—
Evidence of meeting #135 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was appointed.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #135 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was appointed.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
—the people who are reporting public office holders, and while we were doing the investigation of Madam Verschuren and Mr. Ouimet, the Auditor General did her report. Her report came out long after we had finished investigating these—
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Mr. Perkins, I'm afraid that is the time. You will, I'm sure, have another opportunity later in this meeting.
We're turning now to Ms. Khalid.
You have the floor for five minutes, please.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you very much, Chair.
Thank you, Commissioner, for being here today.
Commissioner, have you heard of the Conservative opposition motion that was passed on June 10? It was presented on June 6, 2024, in the House.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I'm sorry, but I'm not aware of the motion you're referring to.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
This motion required the production of documents from the government, the Auditor General and SDTC, to be presented to the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel with the intention of providing these documents to the RCMP. In a recent letter to this committee, the RCMP commissioner sounded the alarm saying that this House order, which is this motion I'm referring to, is interfering in operational and police independence. This is happening in a free and fair society like Canada.
Commissioner, have you ever seen instances where the legislative branch tried to interfere or direct police as to how to do their jobs?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
No. I'm not aware of any such instance.
Liberal
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
You're asking me to comment on the behaviour of Parliament. I'm a servant of Parliament. I do what you direct me to do. It's a bit hard to ask me to say whether a motion passed by Parliament was appropriate or not. Obviously, the commissioner of the RCMP feels it's not proper under the circumstances. He will have good reasons in explaining that, presumably. You should ask him rather than me about this.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Commissioner, respectfully, I do believe that even though you're an employee of Parliament, you have a very, very important responsibility to be hands-off and to be independent of the actions of Parliament. In fact, you oversee a very important aspect of what parliamentarians do.
Commissioner, the Auditor General was recently in the news saying that this specific Conservative House motion would compromise her independence. What's your reaction to hearing a fellow officer of Parliament sound the alarm that parliamentarians are putting her work and her office in jeopardy?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Obviously, it's of concern. I mean, the whole way we set up these various offices is that they're to be independent of any politics and to come up with the facts, present them to the public, inform the public of what's going on, and, if there are any misdeeds or things that shouldn't have been done, expose them. Anything that's done to interfere with the independence of this and to put in question any report that's issued by one of these offices defeats the whole purpose.
I mean, you are independent. That's why you are trustworthy. You're not influenced by outside influences. What you have to do is find the facts and expose them. That should be done without any interference from Parliament.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Is it the usual practice for an officer of Parliament to raise alarm bells like this, in your experience?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I personally am not aware of what has been done before. It may have been. I haven't researched the issue.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
It is, as you said, Commissioner, quite alarming that parliamentarians would interfere with the work of independent office holders who are there to provide scrutiny. It is quite troubling, in my point of view.
The government has addressed the situation that we're talking about today, which is what I think Canadians expect of our government, but that doesn't quite suffice for the Cons. What matters most for them is to create chaos. Mr. Poilievre and his Cons, they thrive in chaos. They need to create it everywhere they go. In turn, they look to hurt trust in our institutions, including your office, Commissioner. When they use the House to direct or to seek to influence police in this country and compromise officers of Parliament, they're looking to hurt the trust in the institutions that they one day will seek to govern.
Commissioner, in your view, what is the long-term damage that is being done to Parliament and to institutions based on this conduct?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
You're asking me to make a political judgment. I'm sorry, I cannot do that. You're basically suggesting that the action of your opponents is undermining the system and will cause damage in the long term and are asking me if I agree. That's for people, that's for you, to judge, not me.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
I'm afraid that is the time all around.
We'll begin our third round with Mr. Brock, I believe.
You have the floor for five minutes.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Commissioner and counsel, welcome. It's always good to see you..
The first concern that I have is I'm quite astonished by the commentary from my colleague Ms. Khalid in terms of her interpretation of a demand for documents as seen fit by a majority of members of Parliament. As I'm sure you will agree with me, Mr. Commissioner, Parliament is supreme, and Committees are supreme. We can order just about anything we want, unfettered.
In fact, the House of Commons' top lawyer basically affirmed that position, that documentation needed to be produced to get to the bottom of yet another scandal by this corrupted Liberal government under Justin Trudeau.
Perhaps Ms. Khalid needs to be informed that simply obtaining documents and forwarding those documents to the RCMP are not and never would be seen to be interference. It aids in their investigation. She is somehow suggesting—wrongly, and deliberately wrongly—that by asking for documents and by furnishing documents to the RCMP, we are directing an outcome, which you know, Commissioner, is completely ridiculous. The RCMP are completely independent and are unfettered in their decision to lay charges or not. Would you agree with that?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Regardless of what Parliament said and regardless of what Justin Trudeau may have said, they have that final discretion. Therefore, Ms. Khalid needs to be educated on the powers that the RCMP actually have.
A broader concern I have is this: Really, why are you here, Commissioner? As much as I enjoy listening to you and listening to your counsel, you were chosen to come here by the Liberal Party. Right out of the gate, they asked you questions about your mandate, as if they didn't even know why you were here.
As we well know, and you can confirm, Commissioner, there are at least a dozen other investigations into this arrive scam scandal, including the Auditor General's and the RCMP's, and numerous colleagues at your level. Various commissioners are actually examining this scandal. Why weren't they here today? They chose you. You made it clear to this committee earlier this year that you have no mandate with respect to the arrive scam. Do you?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I don't.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
My opening statement today made that absolutely clear.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
You made it abundantly clear. This is now twice you've made it clear that you have no mandate, yet the Liberals wasted this committee's time and wasted your time, sir, from doing the good work that you are obviously doing throughout the year.
How much time do I have?