Yes.
Evidence of meeting #135 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was appointed.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #135 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was appointed.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Legal Counsel, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
What sections of the Conflict of Interest Act did Ms. Verschuren violate while she was chair of the board at the Prime Minister's slush fund, having been appointed by his government?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Well, you read my report. I did an extensive investigation into her activities. I found out, first of all, that she was not only head of the SDTC, but she was also head of two not-for-profit organizations. One was called the Verschuren Centre and one was MaRS. These are basically incubator organizations.
Certain companies came forward. They were created by these incubators. She declared her conflict of interest, but then there was an actual vote. What's it called—
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
I apologize for the interruption, but I'm quite tight for time.
I'm just looking for the number of the sections she violated. Are you able to reference those offhand or just to enumerate the number of sections she was found to have violated?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes.
Michael, give him the details, please.
Legal Counsel, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
There were two provisions, which were subsection 6(1) and section 21 of the act.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Sir, are you able to tell us how many [Inaudible—Editor] thousands of dollars she is deemed to have been the beneficiary of as a result of the conflict?
Legal Counsel, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
As part of the report, we didn't do the calculation based on the votes and the dollar amounts associated with those votes.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
We have the Prime Minister's hand-picked chair of his billion-dollar green slush fund who was found guilty of breaking Canada's ethics laws. This is, of course, the latest in a long list of Liberals who have been found to have contravened this act.
In your investigation, did you find that former Liberal innovation minister Navdeep Bains was aware of Ms. Verschuren's conflict of interest with NRStor at the time that she was appointed? Give me just a quick yes or no, if you could.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
We did not look at her appointment. That's not our job. Our job is to look at her, not the steps that led to her appointment. Once she is appointed, does she have a conflict, and how can it be resolved?
By the way, what we did find is, and let's make it quite clear, that she received incorrect legal advice, and that was the real problem. Her advice was because COVID was an emergency, conflict of interest issues did not apply. That was absolutely wrong. She followed that advice and voted on the subsidies that were given to all companies, injections in order to help them survive the COVID crisis.
I found that she shouldn't have done that. She should have recused herself and should have walked out of the room, because the vote affected a company in which she had an interest. She didn't do that. The record clearly shows that she was told no conflict of interest was there.
I spoke to her counsel. I cross-examined and said, “On what basis?” He said, “On my knowledge of basic corporate law.”
There's no corporate law that I know of that says that, because there's an emergency, conflict of interest does not apply. It was just incorrect advice that she followed.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much. That is the time.
We're moving now to Ms. Bradford.
Ms. Bradford, you have the floor for five minutes, please.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Commissioner, for attending this meeting today.
Again, the meeting was called and the subject was to be ArriveCAN, but I see that MP Barrett has now shifted it to focus on Sustainable Development Technology Canada.
Along that line, since he has chosen to steer this discussion in that direction, do you think that.... The Conservatives are continuing to cry wolf, despite the fact that the government has taken responsibility for the lapses in the governance by implementing swift changes to address the situation. Since your report has come out, the SDTC funding has been transferred to the National Research Council, which should ensure more stringent oversight.
Given your findings, how do you take the news of the structural changes, and how will they lead to better accountability and oversight, in your view?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Really, the whole issue of conflict of interest in an organization like SDTC is key, because you have to know something about the industry in order to know what kind of support they need and what form that support should take. On the other hand, you can't have conflict, etc., or you have to recuse yourself. It is ever-present.
SDTC has a very elaborate code of dealing with conflict of interest, which mirrors the provision of the Conflict of Interest Act. All they had to do was follow their [Inaudible—Editor]. Unfortunately, because it was an emergency situation, they thought it didn't apply and they were advised of that.
I expect that now, in light of my report, there will be heightened attention to their own internal code and our act in an attempt to ensure this doesn't happen again.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Thank you, Commissioner.
In looking at your interpretation of subsection 6(1), would it be fair to say that that the mere existence of a conflict of interest wouldn't amount to violating the act, but, rather, once active participation and the making of a decision in instances where the individual knows there could be a conflict of interest...is my understanding correct?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes. If there's a conflict of interest, there are remedies. One of them is, as I said, to recuse yourself. Get out of the room and let the others make the decision, etc. Then you're perfectly fine. If you stay and you vote or you participate in the discussion, then you get yourself into problems.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
You found that Ms. Verschuren did not sufficiently remove herself from decision-making in certain instances, given that she abstained rather than recused herself. In so doing, she was deemed to have participated in decisions and contravened subsection 6(1) and section 21.
If she had properly recused herself in every single instance, would you have found her in breach of both sections?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
No. If she had recused herself, there would have been no breach or contravention of the act.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
In order to respect the act, and even SDTC's own conflict of interest policies, individuals should have recused themselves. The AG found that there were 90 cases where the foundation's conflict of interest policies were not followed, linked to $76 million in funding.
Commissioner, given the lack of recusals, it is in these instances that SDTC leadership would have contravened the act. Is that correct?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
That's not quite correct. I am only asked to look at people who fall under my act. Those are the people who have been appointed by order in council. There are lots of members on the board of SDTC who are not appointed by order in council, and their conflict is not part of my remit.
I find it shocking to see what the Auditor General has reported in terms of conflict of interest, etc., but it was not conflict of interest by reporting public office holders, and that's all I can look at: conflict of interest by reporting public office holders.
In this case, I was asked specifically to look at two reporting public office holders, and I looked at them, at their activities.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Can you tell me how many current investigations your office has under way where they did meet the threshold of conflict of interest?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Right now?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I have none. The last two were Ms. Verschuren and Mr. Ouimet.
At the present time, I am not investigating anybody. There are no facts that have been pointed out to me or no requests received from [Inaudible—Editor] that give me sufficient facts so that I have reasonable grounds to believe that the act has been contravened and so that I can start an investigation.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much. That is the time.
Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.