Evidence of meeting #135 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was appointed.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes. I report to the Speaker of the House. My office is part of the House of Commons and is subject to the rules of the House of Commons.
Liberal
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
When you look at the act and the code, basically they give a huge amount of discretion to the commissioner to decide what a conflict is, what the behaviour is that can be permitted or what the remedies are that should be applied. If the person to whom I give these directions refuses to do it or thinks they have an issue with it and I am wrong, then they can go to the Federal Court and ask for a judicial review of the decision. Other than that, nobody has the ability to tell me how to decide or to criticize or to ask me to take back a decision or anything. I'm completely independent, but I report, publicly, everything I do to the Speaker of the House of Commons. Of course, I publish an annual report.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Thanks for making that clear.
Have you opened an investigation into the ArriveCAN procurement?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
No, I have not, because as I have just told your colleague, I have no jurisdiction.
My jurisdiction is over people who have been appointed by an order in council and are what the act calls reporting public office holders. None of the people involved so far who have been mentioned in either the AG's report or the public proceedings before you qualify as reporting public office holders. I have no jurisdiction to look into it and investigate.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
You do not have any reason to believe that any member of Parliament, minister or their staff has violated the Conflict of Interest Act or code through this procurement.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Indeed, that's exactly it. Nobody has furnished any evidence or pointed out anything that would seem to involve what the act calls a reporting public office holder.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Do you believe that any member of the Liberal government has personally benefited from the selection of any ArriveCAN contractor?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
It's not a question of what I believe or don't believe. I deal with evidence. I have to look at a situation and find on the basis of evidence whether there has been a violation of the act or not.
As I say, so far, I don't have any jurisdiction. If I had jurisdiction, then I would have to look at the facts presented and decide whether there are reasonable grounds to make an investigation. If so, I would do an investigation. But that's very far away from where we are right now.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Just to be clear, there's no investigation into this because you don't believe anyone has violated the act or the code.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
There's no investigation because I don't have jurisdiction. My jurisdiction depends on people who are reporting public office holders. There's no evidence, no referral, to any public office holder who has been involved in this. Hence, I cannot investigate. I have no jurisdiction to do anything. If and when such evidence emerges, then I have to decide whether it warrants an investigation or not.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Is that the threshold that needs to be met for your office to open an investigation?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
First of all, I have to have jurisdiction. That's number one. Then the act says there must be reasonable grounds for me to believe that an investigation is required.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much.
Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you have the floor for six minutes.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Good morning, Commissioner. Thank you for being with us today. I will begin my questions by reminding everyone that you play a key role.
It's not necessarily illegal to show a lack of ethics. The most important part of your role is determining what's ethical and what's not. Conflict of interest is particularly fascinating, because while some behaviour might not necessarily be illegal, it's clearly ethically questionable.
My first question for you is: The most common conflict of interest [Technical difficulty—Editor]—
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Just a moment, Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné. We lost the signal for a few seconds. Could you repeat your question, please?
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Yes, of course.
When we talk about conflicts of interest, we often think of financial ones. For example, there may be a conflict of interest when someone owns a business and is elected or appointed by the government at the same time. However, are all conflicts of interest necessarily financial in nature?
For example, if a senior official appointed by the government covets a position and their appointment to that position depends on the office running smoothly, there could be a conflict of interest that's not necessarily financial in nature, isn't that right?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Conflict of interest can be non-financial in nature. Conflict of interest is defined as follows:
For the purposes of this Act, a public office holder is in a conflict of interest when he or she exercises an official power, duty or function that provides an opportunity to further his or her private interests or those of his or her relatives or friends or to improperly further another person’s private interests.
So it's a very tightly phrased definition. We're not talking about ethics in general. It specifically refers to actions taken by a public office holder to further their private interests or those of a relative, friend or other person.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Okay.
You mentioned at the outset that you look at appointed officials. Does that include heads of agencies and deputy ministers who are appointed by the government?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes, they're included.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
So hypothetically speaking, there could be a conflict of interest when a deputy minister, for example, could be relieved of their duties if they don't make sure that something like the ArriveCAN affair isn't resolved or shelved. Would that be a form of conflict of interest?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
It would depend on the facts, on the intent behind the deputy minister's actions and how they benefited from them. Generally, in such situations, we're talking about pressure, retaliation or other types of behaviour in the public service. That doesn't fall under my jurisdiction, that would go to the public sector integrity commissioner. She handles those things. If you could draw a connection between the actions you're describing and how they have furthered the deputy minister's private interests, then I would be involved.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
We heard some pretty disturbing testimony yesterday. I really don't want to side with the witnesses, but they named a deputy minister who would have been better off if only one version of the ArriveCAN story had been told and if the whole thing had blown over. Perhaps the public sector integrity commissioner should be looking into this, but is it a conflict of interest or a lack of professional integrity? It might fall somewhere in between the two.
Who deals with ethics or conflict of interest among public servants who are not appointed or elected?