Evidence of meeting #135 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was appointed.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I believe it's the public sector integrity commissioner, but it would depend on the facts. The public service can also play a role. If there's no conflict of interest, it's not under my jurisdiction.
Bloc
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Your time is up.
Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for six minutes, please.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank the commissioner and the legal counsel representative for being with us today.
You've already answered many of the questions that were posed in relation to ArriveCAN. They've been, largely, comments about it being out of your jurisdiction.
Is that a fair summation?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes.
What happens there, I in no way condone it or think it's minimal or anything like that; it's just not part of my jurisdiction.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
I understand that.
For those purposes, I want to turn to a particular ethical issue in Canada at the moment and which I think was also highlighted in the ArriveCAN issue. It's indigenous procurement. Adjacent to indigenous procurement are the serious issues of quote-unquote pretendianism, where officials and even members of Parliament and other elected officials across the country are claiming to be indigenous for the purposes of trying to benefit in some way, shape or form from doing that. As an indigenous member of Parliament myself, I'm troubled by what has been a consistent and ongoing effort to use indigenous identity as a tool. It is deeply troubling for indigenous nations across the country, including my own and many others that we work with. It's really troubling to know that this is happening.
It seems to me as though it could fall within your mandate in the future for us to have a way for us to combat pretendianism. It is being used by public officials and it is being used by members of Parliament at times in order to deflect or to even protect themselves from claims of very legitimate racism. It's a concern to me and I think it's a concern to the public.
We've seen it in the last few years, for example, with very high-ranking or high-profile persons in Canada and across the United States. We had to get giant news agencies to investigate whether or not they were truly indigenous. They found out that they weren't, after decades and decades of benefiting from identity fraud. In Canada there was even a severe case of two students attempting to identify themselves as indigenous for the purposes of getting benefits there. It's a growing concern.
I hope you can understand, Commissioner, indigenous people's very legitimate fear of identity fraud. This is something that I think requires more thought, more investigation and more understanding. It also requires co-operation with indigenous nations towards a way or a program or process to verify when officials are in fact using identity as a weapon or as a tool of fraud in order to advance themselves.
Is this something that concerns you at all, particularly within the ethics and conflict of interest laws?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes, of course it's of great concern. It's something that needs to be addressed and dealt with. Unfortunately, it does not fall under my jurisdiction.
You used the term “identity fraud”. If it truly is fraud, then it becomes a criminal offence. If it's just misrepresentation of something, it may not amount to criminal, but it still should not be allowed. To my knowledge, no specific program addresses it as such. It is part of the general ethics of procurement and trying to make sure that people play by the rules. I'm not a procurement expert. I don't know to what extent the verification process needs to be tightened or needs to be improved or not.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
I heard you respond to one of my colleagues about a framework of understanding that you come to in identifying a conflict of interest. I think you attributed it to, if I'm saying this fairly, a claim and an action that could in fact put them into a position where they would unduly benefit.
Could you please describe again what is a conflict of interest, in particular with the angle of seeing it as using indigenous identity in even the act of fraud, which is a criminal offence, but also in the act of conflict of interest? Could that be something within your purview or within the framework that you understand as a conflict of interest?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
You know, it all depends on the definition of “conflict of interest”. As I pointed out to your colleague, it has to be an action where they exercise “an official power, duty or function that provides an opportunity to further his or her private interests or those of his or her relatives or friends or to improperly further another person’s private interests”.
Given the situation you posit, involving somebody impersonating being indigenous when he is not and therefore getting the contract, it is the action of that person. It's not necessarily the action of the person who gives them the contract. Therefore, I don't quite see how conflict of interest applies. It is clearly an action that should not be allowed and that should be prevented or prosecuted, but it doesn't really fit into the whole concept of conflict of interest.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Beyond the concept of conflict of interest, your office deals with issues of ethics. As far as your understanding of the process of identifying an ethical issue is concerned, I believe this to be an ethical issue. Falsely identifying as indigenous for the political, personal and private benefit of attempting to displace one's own racist actions, for example, or one's own perceived racist actions in order to deflect or even to benefit from what could be a very racist claim but is negated because of a claim of being indigenous is something that exists in the political world.
In terms of your standards of ethics and understanding of ethics, does that breach or broach any kind of responsibility or effort that your office can undertake to better prevent that from happening?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Let's start with the beginning of your question. You said that we administer ethics. We do not. We administer conflicts of interest. In doing so, we follow ethical principles.
Although the title of the office is Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, there's not a single provision that uses the word “ethics” or deals with ethics. It is sort of the subtext through all that we do.
Why are we doing this? It's to make sure people have confidence in the Canadian government and that it's done ethically. However, we don't have any specific activity mandated to look at ethics itself.
There are all sorts of other government institutions...it really isn't part of our job.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Mr. Desjarlais, I'm afraid that we've exceeded the time. We'll come back to you, certainly.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
We're coming to the start of the second round.
Mr. Barrett, you have the floor for five minutes.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Commissioner, I want to clear this up for Liberal members who, unsurprisingly, don't seem to know what it is that you do here.
Can you please confirm that you do not have jurisdiction or mandate over the arrive scam scandal?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I do not, as I mentioned in my opening remarks.
My jurisdiction only extends to reporting public office holders. Those are senior public servants who have been appointed by order in council, to put it in common language.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
For the people who do fall under your mandate, lavish dinners and whiskey tastings being given to those individuals by suppliers or involved parties would fall under your mandate and trigger an investigation.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
If it triggers an investigation or not depends on the specific facts.
Clearly, the conduct of reporting public office holders with suppliers, customers or something like this, etc., depending on what the situation is and what happens, would be subject to the act and could lead to an investigation.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Of course.
It seems like there was an attempt, with you having been suggested as a witness, for this to be an opportunity for the government to exonerate itself from the wrongdoing that's occurred in this $60-million scandal, but of course they summoned the wrong officer of Parliament to offer that exoneration—if it were available.
I have a question for you, Commissioner, about Ms. Annette Verschuren, who was the Liberal-appointed chair of Sustainable Development Technology Canada. That's the billion-dollar green slush fund.
Why was she subject to the Conflict of Interest Act?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
She was the chairman of the SDTC. As such, she was appointed by the Governor in Council, so she was subject to the Conflict of Interest Act. She declared her conflicts and she went through the rules when she was appointed, letting us know what her interests are. We appointed a counsellor, as we call them, to her to make sure that her affairs would all be in such a way that there wouldn't be a conflict of interest.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Who was the head of government at the time that she was appointed?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Do you know, Michael?
Michael Aquilino Legal Counsel, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
She was appointed in 2019, so it would be the current government.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
The head of government was Justin Trudeau.
