Public Accounts Committee on Sept. 25th, 2024

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay. It's there and members have it.

What was clear to me is that Ms. Daly's testimony conformed to the version of events that we heard from Cameron MacDonald and Mr. Utano. It conflicted with the events that we heard from Minh Doan. Statements by the senior leadership of CBSA supported Mr. Doan's statement. You have these two conflicting stories.

The problem is that people who support one version of events continually get forms of pressure. They get put on leave and in some cases leave without pay, whereas people who support the other version of events don't face the same kinds of consequences.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Ask a question, Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

We're trying to make sense as a committee—I'd just be curious for your comments on this—of why, while an investigation is supposedly ongoing, you have this conflict between senior officials. One faction is facing penalties already and the other faction is not, when the investigation is supposedly going on.

Doesn't that suggest kind of a problem?

[Lysane Bolduc]

Thank you very much for the question.

I'm not part of any of those factions. I don't want to speculate as to the motivations of those individuals.

I also would like to go back to the words in an answer earlier that I used in that meeting with Ms. Daly. It's specifically the word “targeted”. What I was trying to convey—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Ms. Bolduc, I know you're going to have a chance to answer that. We are over the time. I give witnesses the chance to answer the question posed to them. I'm sure this is going to come up in the next round or soon thereafter.

Ms. Yip, you have the floor, please, for five minutes.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you for coming. I'd like to direct my questions to both of you.

Mr. von Schoenberg, you can answer as well.

Could you please tell us how long you've worked with Diane Daly? What was the working relationship like?

[Lysane Bolduc]

Thank you very much.

I'm going to start and then ask Mr. von Schoenberg to step in.

From the record, not from my recollection, Ms. Daly came back to PSPC as a department in the summer of 2023. I began working for the procurement branch about six months prior in November 2022. She came back through my hierarchy a couple of months after I had joined the procurement branch.

Like I explained earlier, I had not personally met with Ms. Daly until I reached out to her for that meeting on December 14, 2023. Following that meeting, I kept in touch as it related to the investigations with Ms. Daly, but for no other purpose than that. I have a couple of meetings with her in my records, where I checked in on her between December 14, 2023, and March 12, 2024.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Did you feel that it was a good relationship? Was it contentious or tense?

[Lysane Bolduc]

Thank you for the question. It was like a business relationship. I didn't feel that there was anything particular about meeting with her on the few occasions that I had to meet with her.

Like I said, she expressed reticence to participate in the investigation. She was forthcoming with that. She was also forthcoming about her personal situation. I felt empathy for her for what she was going through. I also felt empathy for Ms. Daly about the fact that she needed to appear as a witness in an investigation given her personal circumstances, but nothing more.

I had not heard—the question was asked before—that her work was inadequate at all, through my time.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Okay.

Go ahead, Mr. von Schoenberg.

[Thomas von Schoenberg]

Ms. Daly was part of my directorate between July 29, 2023, until the time of her being placed on administrative leave in March. Ms. Daly was a member of our facility maintenance services contracting division, in which she undertook the procurement and contract management for service contracts related to building services such as elevators, fire alarms, HVAC equipment and that sort of thing.

I had very little direct contact with Ms. Daly. I did participate in some division and team meetings with her. My understanding from her manager is that her performance was entirely satisfactory. There were no concerns about her behaviour, her contact with other individuals or her contact with clients. Thank you.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Did you read the Auditor General's report on ArriveCAN?

[Lysane Bolduc]

Yes, I did.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Do you agree with her findings and recommendations?

[Lysane Bolduc]

Yes, I do personally, and we do as a department. We welcome the recommendations and, in fact, the department has acted upon many of them. Those that are left to act upon we've begun acting upon them. It's the same with the recommendations from the procurement ombud. There were a couple of studies, reviews and reports from the Auditor General, so, yes, we welcome those recommendations.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. von Schoenberg, what about you? Did you read the Auditor General's report?

[Thomas von Schoenberg]

Yes. I have read the report. I'm familiar with the findings of the report, and I would echo what Ms. Bolduc has said. I agree with the findings of the report. I would, however, reiterate that I am not involved in professional services contracting. The contracting I do is generally of a different nature. We very rarely use task-based contracts, so I think the context is somewhat different. However, there are certainly elements of the report that can be taken as general advice and can help us.

I think improvements are being made overall in the procurement branch as we look at the findings of that report and implement some of those changes.

Thank you.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Was there anything in the report that you found concerning?

[Lysane Bolduc]

The report definitely highlights the need for better contract management. It also highlights the need for better documentation of not just the procurement process but also the contract management phase of the procurement life cycle. In those specific areas, again, we've taken action. For example, my new team has already put in place new templates to support our clients to procure professional services, and new checklists as well were put in place to act upon those recommendations from both the Auditor General and the procurement ombud.

We've also strengthened our governance as a department, for example, with new government bodies within PSPC that have emerged at a high level to oversee procurement contracting. There's a new position for quality review as pertains to documentation. I know also that already many files that we were involved in were already reviewed by this new position for quality review and documentation within the procurement branch. If I'm not mistaken, 266 files already have been reviewed since April this year.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Madam Bolduc. Members can pick that up again.

Up next is Mr. McCauley for five minutes, please.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

In the briefing that you received before this committee, were you given briefing documents?

[Lysane Bolduc]

No.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Just a verbal briefing only...?

[Lysane Bolduc]

That is correct. Essentially—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

No, that's all I need to know if there wasn't anything else.

Who instructed you to contact Ms. Daly to start this whole ball rolling?