Public Accounts Committee on Sept. 25th, 2024

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

If there's nothing in writing and she has not lodged a complaint around pressure, what would make one think that she's suspended as a result of whistle-blowing or some concern on this front?

[Lysane Bolduc]

Thank you for the question.

That's her version of the fact.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Okay.

My only other question for you....

Mr. Chair, I'm new to this committee. I understand that Ms. Daly emailed back and forth with Mr. Firth. I understand that she's now laid out some pretty serious allegations.

If there's any evidence that she's shared with this committee, in any correspondence or any transcripts, of where the pressure is obvious, I think that's important. If not, the line of attack is a bit of an odd one if we don't have evidence to back it up.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

You have a right to reply if you like it.

Very good.

Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Did you inform Ms. Reza of your call with Michel Lafleur, or your superior, Dominic Laporte?

[Lysane Bolduc]

Thank you very much for the question.

No, I did not inform Ms. Reza of my call with Mr. Lafleur.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Is that also the case regarding your immediate supervisor, Mr. Laporte?

[Lysane Bolduc]

Michael Mills was my supervisor at the time, but no, I did not inform him of my meeting with Ms. Daly, because it simply made—

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I assume you didn't inform him of your call with Mr. Lafleur either. You didn't inform him that someone on your team, and therefore on theirs as well, was a witness in an investigation.

[Lysane Bolduc]

No, I didn't inform him either. It became pretty clear right away that the department was aware of the fact. So I didn't feel the need to inform my immediate supervisor.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

You said that it's quite unusual, that it can be stressful and that it doesn't happen often.

[Lysane Bolduc]

That's right.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Even so, you didn't think that it would be a good idea to let your line manager know about the investigation or the key witness in your department.

[Lysane Bolduc]

Thank you for the question.

I'm quite sure that, when the human resources department contacted me, I was told that my superiors knew about the Canada Border Services Agency investigation. I thought that this was only natural.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Did Mr. Lafleur tell you that?

[Lysane Bolduc]

No. I think that the information came from PSPC staff.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

PSPC's human resources told you that your superiors likely already knew about it, so there was no need to tell them.

What else did human resources tell you, apart from the fact that Ms. Daly was a witness and that your superiors knew about this?

[Lysane Bolduc]

Actually, human resources contacted me because I was part of Ms. Daly's reporting line and they wanted to ask for my help in telling her why she needed to participate in the investigation and co‑operate with CBSA. That's exactly what I did.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

We know how long the reporting lines can be at PSPC. How many levels or middle people separate you from Ms. Daly?

[Lysane Bolduc]

There's me. Then there's Mr. von Schoenberg, who was her senior director. Then there's her manager, who is at the PG‑06 level. Lastly, there's Ms. Daly.

That said, as I explained earlier, when it comes to human resources cases that concern employees in my area, I get involved when necessary.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Did you involve her direct manager?

[Lysane Bolduc]

I didn't involve her direct manager much. She was in daily contact with Ms. Daly. In cases of this nature, I try to let the manager manage the employee on a day‑to‑day basis, while I handle the more sensitive issues. A CBSA investigation is one example.

I don't think that I spoke to her manager in December. In March, I informed her manager that I had learned about an internal investigation at PSPC. I had to do so. At the time, Ms. Daly was being relieved of her procurement responsibilities.

At that point, I looked into my confidentiality obligations in this case. I made sure that whatever I revealed to her manager fell within the scope of what I could say. I could say that she was no longer allowed to work on procurement‑related files.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Your time is up, Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné.

Wait, we have a point of order.

Mr. Genuis, the floor is yours.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

The interpreter was just advising that the sound was cutting in and out.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Okay. Give me a moment to check that.

We'll just keep going while this is being looked into.

Ms. Bolduc, can you repeat what you said in the last 20 seconds of your response?

Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné's time for asking questions is up, but I'll let you finish your last answer.