Public Accounts Committee on Sept. 25th, 2024

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

She's suggesting that period of time, but I understand you deny that fact—that is, that she ever raised concerns with senior managers.

[Lysane Bolduc]

Thank you very much for the question.

About CBSA, when we were in our roles...no.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Interesting.

Do you recall the conversation that Ms. Daly is speaking about in regard to the moment when she had been [Technical difficulty—Editor] that fear of retaliation if she didn't give false testimony? Do you recall that conversation?

[Lysane Bolduc]

Thank you very much for the question, Mr. Chair.

I do recall a conversation I had with Ms. Daly. My recollection, again, was that we were genuinely offering our support at a time when it was particularly difficult for her.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

How long was that meeting?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

I'm afraid, Mr. Desjarlais, that is the time. We will come back to you.

Beginning our second round, Mr. Brock, you have the floor again for five minutes.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Ms. Bolduc, when did you find out that your Teams meeting with Ms. Daly and Mr. von Schoenberg was actually recorded?

[Lysane Bolduc]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, for the question.

It was when I watched the committee proceedings the night that it occurred, on August 7.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I trust that you haven't had access to any transcript and you haven't had access to the actual recording itself. I appreciate your memory. It may not be as sharp as it would be if I were asking you what you did last night, so I'll go through some of the details because the impression I'm hearing about you being so managerial-like and concerned regarding her well-being, etc., can be interpreted differently. I'm going to go through a couple of areas.

One thing that really caught my eye is your confirmation. This is a 17-minute conversation. Within the first minute and a half you used these words: “I know that you did exchange briefly with the CBSA in recent weeks. I know and you know they probably explained that they're carrying out an investigation on the allegations that are targeting two individuals within the CBSA.”

It's a very interesting use of the word “targeting” because that's precisely what the evidence has shown, that government and senior managers, deputy managers and ADMs, have looked for fall people to take the blame for this $60-million boondoggle.

There are consequences when people speak out against power, when people speak out against authority. They end up suspended, sometimes without pay. I'm glad you used the word “targeting” because that's the first confirmation that Justin Trudeau and his government and his public servants are deliberately targeting individuals to take the blame for this boondoggle. That's one observation.

The second observation is that you said their investigation includes everything that they're able to put their hands on and there are a couple of holes. Here's another interesting angle. You asked very early on whether Daly was threatened, and you didn't say that once. You didn't say it twice. You didn't say it three times. In 17 minutes, Ms. Bolduc, you reiterate, “If you've been threatened, now is your time to share details.”

I would well imagine the people you believed were threatening Diane Daly were her friends, Mr. Utano and Mr. MacDonald. Am I correct?

[Lysane Bolduc]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, for the question.

You are correct that—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Yes. Thank you.

[Lysane Bolduc]

—I have not heard the—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you. I'm moving on.

[Lysane Bolduc]

No, no, no—I would like to say on what you are correct.

I have not heard the proceedings. I'd like to explain why—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Ma'am, this is my time.

I asked you if you were referring to MacDonald or Utano threatening Diane—

[Lysane Bolduc]

No.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Are you saying no?

[Lysane Bolduc]

No.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Who, then, were you suggesting was threatening her?

[Lysane Bolduc]

Just generally speaking, there was no—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

What evidence were you relying on?

[Lysane Bolduc]

None. There has been—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Who told you? Who told you to use that line of attack?

[Lysane Bolduc]

Nobody.

Essentially, I was making sure that Ms. Daly did not feel...because she was uncomfortable to participate in the investigations—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Because she already laid out her position. Why does she need to participate in an optional meeting that you kept stressing was no longer optional?

In fact, what really disturbs me is that Ms. Daly specifically asked you this: “I want evidence. I want policy. I want written direction. I want something official that compels me to participate in a meeting that I'm not comfortable with.”

You agreed that you would provide that, and in fact you didn't. Why didn't you provide policy?