Public Accounts Committee on Sept. 25th, 2024

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Does it sometimes happen that a client says that they actually underestimated the maximum amount they would have to spend? That happens often in construction. For example, an estimate is given to tear down a wall, but in the end there is a lot more work involved than expected so there has to be a change order.

Can that also happen in the case of a supply arrangement for TBIPS? If so, what is your course of action?

[Lysane Bolduc]

It can happen. Some of those contracts allow for an extension in duration or an increase in value. So that possibility has been provided for. When it happens, the options set out in those contracts are exercised.

Extending the length of a contract is not so serious, but we recommend limiting as much as possible any increase in the value of a contract without issuing a new call for bids from suppliers. That is how we proceed.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Ms. Bolduc, I imagine that when you got the call from Mr. Lafleur, you had already known for a number of months that ArriveCAN would become a huge issue, isn't that true?

[Lysane Bolduc]

Yes. As I recall, the appearance of the first witnesses before the committee had just made the headlines, in the fall.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

That's right, that was in November and December 2023.

You also knew where Ms. Daly, a member of your team, came from.

[Lysane Bolduc]

Actually, I didn't know. I found out when they contacted me to tell me that…. No, wait, I found out when her name was mentioned at the committee.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Do you remember the date, approximately?

[Lysane Bolduc]

No. I think it was in November.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

At that point, did you not think it would be a good idea to ask Ms. Daly some questions or to speak to Mr. von Schoenberg, or to the manager at the PG-06 level, whose name we do not know? In any case, their identity is not that important right now.

[Lysane Bolduc]

At that time, Ms. Daly was mentioned as a witness, as someone who was there. When Mr. Lafleur contacted me, it was the same thing. He wanted—

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Even if she was considered as a witness, surely you were somewhat curious. The issue was making the headlines after all, and the auditor general's report was going to be published in February 2024, so there was a lot going on.

The name of an employee from your team was being mentioned publicly. She was part of the Canada Border Services Agency team that was directly involved in what would become a scandal. Nonetheless, you did not speak with either Ms. Daly or one of her superiors.

[Lysane Bolduc]

No, not at that time. As I said, I spoke to her for the first time on December 14, 2023.

When Ms. Daly worked for me, she was actually working in a procurement sector that was not for professional services. As Mr. von Schoenberg just explained, she was working in the procurement sector for infrastructure operations and maintenance. As Mr. von Schoenberg also said, there were no problems with the work she was doing in my sector either.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné, your speaking time is up. You will have another turn later on.

Up next is Mr. Desjarlais.

You have the floor for two and a half minutes, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to continue my questioning on the TBIPS program.

From my perspective, the TBIPS program is a system that largely allows these brutal companies, like GC Strategies, to get in the door to public procurement and take good jobs away from public servants. We've heard this many times at this committee already.

The TBIPS program has someone in charge of it, someone who makes a decision related to who gets on that list. Who is that person?

[Lysane Bolduc]

There's a team, like I explained earlier, that assesses the proposals that are received on a quarterly basis for each and every one of those methods of supply, TBIPS being one of them.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

What's the name of this unit?

[Lysane Bolduc]

It's a directorate, and it's called the PSD, or professional services directorate. It's that simple.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Who is the leader of this PSD?

[Lysane Bolduc]

It's currently me. I am there to transform it. I'll say that we have recognized what you've just stated. It has been said at committee that we need to make changes. Specifically, I must make changes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

You would agree that the TBIPS program allowed for what, in this case, is either a convenient loophole for small predators like GC Strategies to take advantage of millions of dollars of government contracting or, at worst, a coordinated criminal effort that would allow for bribes, fancy dinners and preferred access by certain individuals who would align themselves with groups like GC Strategies.

It's one of the two. Is that correct?

[Lysane Bolduc]

Again, we recognize that we need to modernize. We've already started modernizing. We've brought in several changes to those methods of supply.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I agree with that, and I fully commend the work related to the rebuilding of the program.

What's important to understand in any mistake, particularly system failures like this—I classify this as a massive system failure—is that in your work to try to rebuild it, you need to understand how these things went wrong. The Auditor General found instances where high-level officials were taken out to dinners and gave preferential treatment to GC Strategies.

Do you think that, in any way, shape or form, could have determined the outcome of GC Strategies getting onto a list like TBIPS, which allowed them access to millions of dollars in government contracts?

[Lysane Bolduc]

GC Strategies must have—I wasn't there at the time—made a proposal and gotten onto the list, the supply arrangement that's—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Do you see this often, little groups like GC Strategies being able to get on a list like this?