Public Accounts Committee on Sept. 25th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Desjarlais, thank you. You will have another opportunity. You'll be able to pick it up. I'm going to give you a full two and a half minutes for your final turn.

Mrs. Kusie, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much.

In her opening statements, Diane Daly stated she felt intimidated and attacked during the internal investigation currently going on at CBSA. She used phrases such as, “I am very concerned that if I tell the truth here, I'm going to lose my job.” She also stated that “I have been muzzled for some time now.” In the same opening statement, Ms. Daly stated, “Despite assurances from my [director general] and senior director that CBSA was not investigating me, ATIP records show PSPC began investigating me on December 11, 2023.”

She states, “I haven't had federal authorization to do procurement from...2018 through...2023. I'm currently on administrative leave from Public Works.”

Can you please explain why Ms. Daly was told she was not being investigated when she is now part of the agency's internal investigation process and has since been interviewed?

[Lysane Bolduc]

Ms. Daly still is not under investigation by the CBSA in my understanding. Again, I'm not part of those investigations. I can confirm that there is an investigation at PSPC. At the time that the statements were made by me to Ms. Daly, she was a witness into an investigation. The statements that I made to her were accurate and true when I made them on December 14, 2023.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

If Ms. Daly did not have any federal authorization to be involved in procurement, can you explain why Kristian Firth named her as the individual in the CBSA who helped him negotiate the terms of his own contract?

[Lysane Bolduc]

No, I can't. Mr. Firth and Ms. Daly would have to speak for themselves on that.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

If you suspected Ms. Daly of misconduct in the procurement of the ArriveCAN application, why was she given procurement authority once again in July 2023?

[Lysane Bolduc]

Again, I did not suspect Ms. Diane Daly of anything at the time because I was not there. I was not part of the procurement branch at the time. When she returned to the department in July 2023, there was no such thing as an investigation on Ms. Daly at that time.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Ms. Daly stated in her testimony that she believes she is on administrative leave because CBSA and Public Works did not get the negative narrative expected about two former bosses at CBSA in the January 15, 2024, security interview.

Is this the reason Ms. Daly was placed on leave?

[Lysane Bolduc]

Those are her statements. In answer to your question of why she was placed on leave, she was placed on leave because an administrative investigation began in March 2024 initiated by PSPC. We judged that it was more appropriate to remove her from her procurement duties given the investigation and place her on administrative leave with pay at that time.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

I'm not sure what you based your judgment upon, but Ms. Daly also stated, Madame Bolduc, that two weeks after she was placed on leave, you, as her former director general, were appointed director general of the new professional service transformative solutions sector on March 27, 2024. You've corroborated positively with this today.

It would appear that this position was created and given to you because you helped to generate a false set of reprisals against Antonio Utano, Cameron MacDonald and Diane Daly, as they claimed. What would you have to say to that, please?

[Lysane Bolduc]

As I explained, this was a lateral move. I was previously director general. I was asked to step into an area of procurement where help was needed, hence why I accepted the position as director general to transform the professional services. Again. there were several reports from the Auditor General and the procurement ombud that identified a need to modernize and to transform, and I stepped into the job.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Did you receive an increase in salary or substantive level in this new position?

[Lysane Bolduc]

Not at all.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Mr. Chair, I'm not sure if the group here is aware, but last year Canada's Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act, which provides whistle-blower protection, was ranked last when compared to 50 other countries. This government was given an opportunity to update whistle-blower protections back in 2017, but accepted none of the government operations committee's recommendations to improve whistle-blower protections. Finally, the Bloc, of course, my colleagues, put forward a piece of legislation to improve whistle-blower protections, which is now being held up in the Senate and which was filibustered for weeks by the Liberals.

Mr. Chair, unfortunately, the testimony we are receiving here today from Madame Bolduc corroborates the idea that, frankly, public servants are not safe in speaking the truth in this Liberal government.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Up next is Ms. Bradford. You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

I would like each of you to answer these questions, if you wouldn't mind.

Was it common practice to meet with prospective vendors and contractors off site, to your knowledge?

[Lysane Bolduc]

No.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Mr. von Schoenberg, did you do that in your practice at all?

[Thomas von Schoenberg]

No. It's not regular practice.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Would you consider meeting with prospective contractors outside of the office to discuss contract requirements or details to be normal practice?

[Lysane Bolduc]

No, it's not.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Neither one of you ever did that—okay.

[Thomas von Schoenberg]

Same answer.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Did you or any of your colleagues meet with Mr. MacDonald or Mr. Utano to discuss developing the RFP or otherwise?

[Lysane Bolduc]

Never. I don't know either of these people, and I never met with them or interacted with them.