Evidence of meeting #145 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was parliamentary.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
With respect, the answer is no, you have not contacted the Auditor General. Is that correct?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
If you let me finish one sentence, I'll gladly answer, but I cannot answer you if you keep interrupting me.
You asked me, and I'm pointing out that the damage was done through the Auditor General.
Now, you want to have an answer specifically on what we contacted the Auditor General about. My colleague Michael will answer you.
Michael Aquilino Legal Counsel, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
The simple answer is no, we don't communicate with other agents of Parliament to discuss operational matters.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Let me just say, with the greatest of respect, Mr. von Finckenstein—I have respect for you and the office that you hold—that I find it surprising and disappointing that you would simply say, “It's not within my purview. I have no interest in looking at this further to identify or get to the bottom of any of these further additional 186 conflicts of interest involving $330 million of taxpayer money.”
It seems to me that 186 conflicts of interest involving that amount of money should have the full attention of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you, Mr. Cooper.
Mr. von Finckenstein, if you have a response to that, I'll certainly allow it.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
A conflict of interest doesn't necessarily mean a conflict of interest under the act, first of all. You would have to go through each one of those to see.
Second, as I pointed out, it's my discretion to launch an investigation or not. I launch one if I think it will have an effect and is needed. In this case, I'm of the view that the Auditor General has made a very lengthy report and exposed all sorts of malfeasance by the corporation and its operations. I think my making an investigation of any of the board members would merely substantiate what the Auditor General has already said. I don't think it is worth my time or the use of public money.
The fact is that all I can do is expose. I cannot penalize. I cannot recoup.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you, Mr. von Finckenstein.
Next is Ms. Bradford for six minutes, please.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to both witnesses for appearing today.
Just for the benefit of people who may be watching from home, I want to reiterate, Mr. von Finckenstein, that you've already appeared before both this committee and INDU on this subject within the last two months, so you're quite familiar with this process and the topic.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
I believe Mr. von Finckenstein was here on ArriveCAN previously. This is his first time here on this one.
Liberal
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Yes. Okay.
Anyway, I did stop the clock. The floor is yours. I just wanted to be clear on that.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Right. That's not why he was called—you're correct—but it did devolve into that.
Since your last appearance at this committee, we've heard from two members of the new SDTC board, Ms. Morgan and Ms. Doyle. Both have stated that they met with you as part of their appointment process.
Can you confirm that you met with the three new members of the board responsible for the transition of SDTC into the NRC?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Are you talking about the members of the new board—Marta Morgan, Paul Boothe and Cassie Doyle?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I had one conversation with Mr. Boothe. I have not talked to the other two. However, they asked for a presentation from my office on the Conflict of Interest Act, how it works and how it applies to them, and we gave them that presentation.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Then you didn't meet with either Ms. Morgan or Ms. Doyle.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Okay.
Could you expand on the conversation you had with the third member, then?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
That was prior to appointment. He basically asked me what the act involved and what the obligations would be. It was very short and cursory, because I didn't know whether or not he was going to be appointed or whether he wanted to be. In effect, like any responsible person before taking a new job, he wanted to know what was involved and what it was.
I pointed out to him that the biggest issue he would probably be facing was whether he had any assets that would prevent him from taking the job or whether any previous activity on his part could be considered a conflict, etc. He obviously had to make the decision.
He seemed to be not at all worried, if I can say it that way, about anything I said. He was a retired public servant and he didn't think he had any assets or activities that involved the SDTC.
It was his decision to make. All I could do was outline it to him: If you accept this job, this is the kind of regime you will be under.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Just to confirm, then, you haven't met with any of the three of them after their appointment to the board.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
No, I have not.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Okay.
The members we've had before committee, Ms. Morgan and Ms. Doyle, stated that they are not conflicted and that they have no conflicts with any company or organization within the clean-tech sector. Can you speak to this?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
It is up to them to decide.
As I mentioned in my opening remarks, they are subject to the act, but because they are only public officers and not reporting public officers, it is up to them to inquire or to familiarize themselves with the act and to act in accordance with it. If you're a reporting public officer or a member of Parliament like you, then, as you know, you have to make a declaration and annually update it. There's a person designated to look after you. You can talk to them at any time.
That doesn't apply to public office holders. If you're a public office holder, basically you're subject to the act. We write them a letter: Here is the act. You are now appointed. You are subject to the act. This is a copy of the act. If you have any problem, contact us. It's up to them to decide whether or not they have a conflict and whether or not they want to consult us.