Evidence of meeting #145 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was parliamentary.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
You don't always need a request from members. It can be anyone.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes. It's not a request. If somebody writes me from the public, I don't have to act at all on it, but basically, of course, I will look at it. As I say, there has to be reason to believe that there has been a contravention of the act. If there isn't, then we don't go any further.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
What are the dangers of an uncredible Office of the Auditor General or Office of the Ethics Commissioner?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
What are the dangers of an uncredible office? Well, I mean, the whole system is based on integrity of government. The Auditor General's job is the same as mine and the same as that of the of Public Sector Integrity Commissioner; it's to ensure that the government works with integrity, that the rules are respected and that there's no self-serving, etc.
If we don't do that, if people can't believe in what we say or if our reports are not based on fact or something, then the whole exercise is for the birds and basically just increases the lack of faith that some people have in the government.
When we do things, we are very careful that everything is substantive. We want to demonstrate it. We have no interest in the outcome. I am personally indifferent to it; it's a job I have to do. I have to find out whether there has been a violation and, if so, expose it. At the same time, I want to be very careful that I don't hurt somebody's reputation by relying on facts that can't be proved or on things that are said or issued with ulterior motives but that really do not have a bearing on the issue in question.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
I appreciate your clear statements and your opening remarks.
What are the dangers of a tainted police force in this country, given the legislative branch's incursion into its independent processes?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
You're now alluding to what you had before. The problem is the documents that you have asked for and sent to the RCMP. If they use them or something like that, to what extent will that interfere with subsequent prosecutions of a person, and to what extent are those documents obtained in violation of the Charter of Rights? That's an issue for which nobody knows the answer.
Undoubtedly, the issue will come before the courts at some point in time, and they'll have to decide in a Solomonic way how to reconcile these two principles: the principle of, perhaps, the supremacy of Parliament and the principles set out in the Charter of Rights.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Be very brief if you have a question, and if you don't have a question, you'll keep us on time.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
That's perfect. Your side will have another opportunity, of course.
Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you now have the floor. You have only two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Commissioner, in the Verschuren report you prepared, you mentioned that there had indeed been a breach in the conflict of interest policy in the case of NRStor, Ms. Verschuren's company.
The Auditor General identified more than a dozen cases of conflict of interest where policies were not followed. What about those other companies? Have you looked at all of them?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I'm going to ask Mr. Aquilino to answer that question.
Legal Counsel, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
We did look at every single decision that Ms. Verschuren made and every single one of her votes when she was at SDTC. We didn't name the companies, but we reported on every decision she made.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
I know this question has already been asked, but since the Auditor General has compiled the list and provided it to the committee, I'd like to know if you've seen the list. If you looked at all the transcripts, you did pretty much the same thing as the Auditor General. Did you compare your results with the Auditor General's?
Legal Counsel, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
No, we didn't compare them to determine if our numbers matched up. Based on the primary resources we obtained through our investigation, we ourselves counted every vote she had cast, as well as the results. She would sometimes declare a conflict of interest and abstain rather than recuse herself. In some cases, despite a statement, she still voted. We did the count ourselves.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
In the other cases, was there nothing as egregious as NRStor?
Legal Counsel, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
We observed that there were systemic issues. That's what the commissioner found in his report. For example, in the COVID emergency funding votes, all of the board members basically followed the same legal advice, which was wrong.
As the commissioner mentioned, in our opinion, conducting subsequent investigations would take us no further in exposing these systemic issues, because these problems existed for each member.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
If it were properly determined that a member of the board of directors had, at the very least, lacked judgment and had potentially become wealthier, it would be good to have a study showing that. However, we know that the RCMP has begun its investigation.
That's it for me.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much.
Up next is Mr. Cannings again.
You have the floor for two and a half minutes, please.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
I'd like to continue with this theme of how we stop this from happening in the future. I'm imagining that these directors knew what a conflict of interest is. If not, I think there should be some sort of mandatory orientation to instruct them on what it is and some rules around when they have to recuse themselves in different scenarios.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
The SDTC has a very elaborate code of conduct by itself, which made reference to the Conflict of Interest Act. There was absolutely nothing wrong with it. The code was well set out and clear.
I'll ask Michael to see if we have any evidence on whether they had training on it or not. However, clearly it was given to them when they were appointed. Also, as with everybody who's appointed, we write to them, saying that you are now subject to the act, and we include a copy of the act.
Michael, do we have any evidence that there was any training inside SDTC?
Legal Counsel, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
It wasn't set out in the report, and I would assume there was not. However, the interesting thing that is set out in the report is that their own policy set out the correct standard, the standard to recuse in such instances, and they didn't follow it.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
You see, the problem here was that they really got very bad legal advice, and they followed the legal advice rather than looking at the code, which said quite correctly what they had to do.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
As MPs we're reporting officers or whatever, so we have to report annually. Also, the first day that we come in for orientation here, we are sat down and the legal people go over with us various things about conflict of interest and what will put us in jail. It's very much emphasized.
I'm wondering if that was not done here, or what...? You say their policies were good as written, but they either ignored them or weren't aware.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Mr. Cannings, we didn't examine the internal educational policy of SDTC, so I cannot speak to it. I can only assume, as is the case with any other corporate body when there are new directors, that the corporate counsel sits down with them and tells them what their obligations are and gets them to sign a piece of paper saying that they have read the code and will abide by it.