Evidence of meeting #149 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sdtc.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you.
Regarding that, your office has the ability to provide evidence to the RCMP in the case of any criminality.
Is that correct?
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
In order to do so, the established mechanism we have with the RCMP is that a production order is provided. We have some informal and general conversations before that might happen, but that is typically the course of action.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
As of July 25, the RCMP confirmed they hadn't received any such request or order from your office.
Is that also correct?
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
The order comes the other way. The RCMP sends me a production order if they want information.
However, as I mentioned earlier, we have a good working relationship with the RCMP. We let them know when we're embarking on work and when our work is going to be made public, unless we feel it's necessary to refer something to them before the report is made public. That happens in rare instances.
We usually speak to them after our report is public if we feel they should be involved.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Right.
You understand that the RCMP recently started an investigation into SDTC. Do you find it appropriate or inappropriate for Parliament, especially opposition parties, to get involved with what is now an active investigation conducted by the RCMP—one with your collaboration, if requested by the RCMP?
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
I think it would be wrong of me to comment on the will of Parliament and its actions.
What I can tell you is that as recently as today, we spoke with the RCMP. We reiterated our willingness to co-operate and that we would follow our usual mechanism, which is that, if information is needed, a production order can be sent to my office.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you.
I'm going to turn to your recommendations quickly.
We heard from the current transition board that they've implemented 11 out of 12 of your recommendations, which I think is pretty good news. They're currently implementing your final recommendation, which is a project review.
Can you speak about the rationale behind this recommendation? Couldn't the board have just worked from your findings, rather than doing their own review? What do you think is the purpose of such a project review?
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
I want to highlight that this was the one recommendation with which the foundation only partially agreed. However, based on the testimony of some of the current board members—and I believe the audit team has also been having conversations with some of the board members—they intend to fully carry out the recommendation.
This is important because we did statistical sampling of a few of the funding streams. We looked at a sample and found that there were clearly some organizations that were ineligible. With statistical sampling, you can sort of extrapolate that to the whole population. As we mentioned in the report, we believe there are approximately 16 other funding organizations that might have been ineligible. It is up to management to do that level of detailed work, file by file, in order to determine eligibility. That is why we made that recommendation and feel it's important.
If an organization has received funding that it wasn't eligible for, I expect the government to recover those funds. If they do not have plans to do it, they should be transparent and open with Canadians about that.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much.
Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you now have the floor for two and a half minutes.
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Mr. Rahme, if you don't mind, I'd like to come back to the Verschuren Centre and its treatment.
I have in my possession a letter signed by you, which was sent to the Verschuren Centre's president and CEO, Beth Mason. The letter begins with “Dear Beth”, which is quite familiar. In the letter, you say that your team will take all the necessary steps to find funding for the project in question. You even say that someone from SDTC, Jonathan Kaida, will ensure proper follow-up so that SDTC can support the Verschuren Centre in its efforts. You are allocating SDTC resources to a project at the Verschuren Centre, where Ms. Verschuren sits on the board of directors.
Is it common practice to assign employees to projects that are not eligible for funding from SDTC and to find funding elsewhere?
Chief Operating Officer, Sustainable Development Technology Canada
As I previously said, for applicants who are not successful in our process, it is a common practice for us to try to refer them to the other potential federal or provincial programs that may be more suitable.
Chief Operating Officer, Sustainable Development Technology Canada
I don't recall Mr. Kaida.
Bloc
Chief Operating Officer, Sustainable Development Technology Canada
I don't recall. We would have several examples, but I don't recall any off the top of my head.
Chief Operating Officer, Sustainable Development Technology Canada
We would have many, many people who would pass through [Inaudible—Editor]
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Can you provide us with similar letters that you sent to the CEOs of companies that were not receiving funding, so that we can make comparisons? You assigned SDTC employees to find funding for a company that definitely has a conflict of interest.
Finally, SDTC employees are helping ineligible companies find funding elsewhere in the government, and that's a recurring process. I would be curious to see more letters like that.
Chief Operating Officer, Sustainable Development Technology Canada
I'll have to look into that. We receive several hundred inquiries per year, so I'll have to look into that.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Very well.
Let me be very clear: Normally, witnesses have three weeks to provide documents to the committee. If the committee does not receive similar letters for similar projects, I will assume there were no similar letters. For our businesses, I think it's the fair thing to do.
So I'm asking you to send us letters, for similar situations. I'd be very curious to see them.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much.
Mr. Masse, again, you have the floor for two and a half minutes, please.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Quickly, to finish with Mr. Hayes here, had the SDTC employees who were at arm's length been in-house—that is, part of the government employee system that we have that is connected—would that have affected your ability to do this process?
Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
Absolutely. We would have been able to treat this audit like any other audit of a department or agency.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Thank you.
I'm going to move to the witnesses online.
That's been one of my points all along in this: we create these outside agencies so they don't even get the same whistle-blower protection legislation. Even in this place, here on the Hill, people don't have the same rights because of the legislation here on the Hill that protects the employers and so forth. That's a point that's very relevant to this—creating these agencies so they don't have the accountability.
Mr. Rahme, can you tell me if any of the SDTC managers or those making the decisions are getting severances or bonuses? Are they all moving over to NRC, or is the board providing packages for them not to move to NRC?
Chief Operating Officer, Sustainable Development Technology Canada
I can confirm that all of the staff, with one notable exception of a group, are being transferred over to the NRC. We're working very closely with the NRC to ensure that they have a place to land, that there's a smooth transition and that they'll be receiving offers that will be well within the NRC's compensation frameworks. I can also confirm that we will comply with employment law by ensuring that the transition happens smoothly.
The one group of individuals that will not be moving over to the NRC is the executive team, which includes me. The board has asked me to stay on to help assist them with the transition. Once it's complete, I will not be moving over, along with my executive team; we will not be moving to the NRC.