Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 6th, 2024

[Arianne Reza]

I think it's important to note that we have a procurement code of conduct, and vendors have to abide by it. They have to act in good faith. They can't be in conflict of interest. They can't be associated with any criminal act or labour violations, and we're holding them accountable to that. That's a really important distinction. That's what we're using to proceed with.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

How will those vendors who refuse to pay back be dealt with?

[Arianne Reza]

Again, I would say that they're a very small portion, but we will develop the muscle. I don't want us to get too ahead of ourselves, but it will likely end up in court.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Okay.

I'm looking at your opening statement here. Under some of the changes that you've mentioned, you talk about “improving evaluation requirements to more effectively validate...suppliers”.

How do you propose to do that?

[Dominic Laporte]

In the past, for example, resources would be provided. We would get the CV, but it would be at the RFP stage. What we are doing now is that at the task authorization, we want to make sure the people or the names that are provided are going to be the ones actually working on the job.

We have asked, for example, for a signed CV. We want to make sure that the resources are properly evaluated, so those who are going to be effectively doing the work are the ones for which the evaluation took place. This is one step that we're taking.

There's more transparency in terms of resources and the experience of those resources. It's making sure that we validate the experience and that each resource also gives permission. If you're a subcontractor and your name is going to be used on the bid, we want to make sure that you gave explicit permission to be part of that submission. This is an additional step we are taking.

Also, I did mention the clearer task authorization. We're making sure that we have clear task authorization.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. That is the time.

Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Ms. Reza, I want to come back to the important issue of non-competitive contracts.

You seem to think that, if about 20% of PSPC's contracts are non-competitive, that's okay. However, the percentage of non-competitive contracts on the open government portal is also the percentage I got in response to a written question I asked you. That question was placed on the Order Paper. That percentage ranged from 1% to 4% prior to 2015.

I doubt the number of files involving intellectual property rights or the number of military procurements was really lower prior to 2015.

Why has the number of non-competitive contracts skyrocketed since then?

[Arianne Reza]

We needed those contracts because of the pandemic. That's always what happens with vaccines, and you have to look at the value of the contracts.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Prior to the pandemic, from 2015 to 2019, that percentage was at 18%. There are currently four or five times as many non-competitive contracts as there were before 2015. That was before the pandemic.

What's the rationale for that, if not carelessness?

[Arianne Reza]

I'm not sure how to rationalize that. Of course, I can check the military contracts that were awarded. It obviously depends on the value of the vaccine contracts that were bundled, not for the vaccines required during the pandemic, but there is always—

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Does Public Services and Procurement Canada award a lot of military contracts?

[Arianne Reza]

Yes, PSPC awards a lot of them.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

If 20% of the contracts were non-competitive, were the vast majority of them military contracts?

[Arianne Reza]

I can tell you that, in terms of the value of the contracts, some were defence-related.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I'm talking about the number of contracts.

[Arianne Reza]

I'll ask Mr. Laporte to give you more details about that.

[Dominic Laporte]

I think about 20% or 30% of the contracts are military contracts, so it's a significant percentage. I'm not going to debate the 3% or 4%, but I would actually like to look at that number, because if military contracts are excluded, the numbers won't be the same. In many cases, those contracts aren't published, but they are included in the denominator we use. That can change the percentage, too.

To say that 95% of the contracts were competitive seems very high to me. I've never seen anything like that in my career.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

That's what's published on the open government portal, which brings me to another question. Some contracts may not be on there. If that's the case, the problem is worse than we thought. That would be a lack of transparency.

Either the problem is a lack of transparency and the contracts are not on the open government portal, as they should be and as the government promised, or the vast majority of contracts are on the portal, and we have to go by the figures provided on that portal. It shows that about 4% of contracts were non-competitive from 2010 to 2014.

[Arianne Reza]

May I suggest that you submit something in writing to explain the trend we're seeing?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Yes, you can. Thank you very much.

Ms. Zarrillo is up next again, for two and a half minutes.

You have the floor.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you.

My questions are for witness Reza.

There were some comments made about the processes when unfair practices are realized and seen. To follow up, there has been action. We know there's still a lot of work to do.

What are some of the processes that have changed in regard to unfair practices, in light of what happened with ArriveCAN? I'm thinking about future contracts.

[Arianne Reza]

I'll start, and then I'll turn to Dominic.

I think what's also important to understand is this: As a whole, government does $37 billion in procurement a year. That's a very big number. PSPC does $24 billion, mostly in high-value contracts. We look at the procurement process and its integrity. Are we getting competition in? Are we getting information in that can show there is vendor compliance? Do we know who we're doing business with?

I think this is an area where I'd like to turn to Dominic, who can talk a bit about it. One key aspect of ArriveCAN is vendor performance. Who is the Government of Canada doing business with and on what grounds? We're going to be opening work on this.

Dominic, may I turn to you?

[Dominic Laporte]

Yes. Thank you very much.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Before that witness speaks, could I ask him to frame it in this way?

We know there are preferred vendors. I know that, in my community, it's difficult. People tell me it's difficult to get contracts with the Government of Canada. I also think about discrimination. I think about who has those networks, who's close to parliamentarians and who's close to people working in the public service. Do they get the first point of access?

How can you level the playing field, whether it's for women, people of colour or indigenous suppliers? I'm interested in that.

[Arianne Reza]

I'm interested in sharing some of our experiences in terms of supplier diversity and opportunities across Canada for vendors to compete. I think that's a key piece to it, as well.

Dominic, could you address those three areas?