Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 18th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Knubley. I appreciate that answer.

Up next is Ms. Mathyssen.

You have the floor for six minutes, please. It's over to you.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Knubley, for appearing before us today.

I apologize, as a new member on this committee who is subbing in. I hope my questions aren't too repetitive.

I'll go back to what Madame Sinclair-Desgagné was talking about. You had put Mr. Noseworthy on the board to ensure that you had a good level of communication and a good route of communication. How long had you worked with ADM Noseworthy by this point?

[John Knubley]

With respect to Andrew Noseworthy, we have a long history of working together. In fact, we met first on the Meech Lake accord in the late 1980s or early 1990s. It was the late eighties, I think, to be precise. At that time, he was at Intergovernmental Affairs in Newfoundland. I then went on to work at the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency in Halifax. I was the vice-president there from 2002 to—

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I'll have to cut you off, a little bit, just because I have a limited amount of time.

In terms of that relationship, then, you were fully trusting him to continue to do the good work, as you had assessed thus far, in his role as a liaison between you and SDTC.

[John Knubley]

Yes, I trusted my relationship with Andrew Noseworthy.

Again, just to clarify, the overall approach at this time, partly because of these earlier reports, was all about focusing on policy, commercialization, improving data and reporting on emissions. This was the focus.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Are all deputy ministers and assistant deputy ministers given full training for conflict of interest on the policies that are related to conflict of interest?

[John Knubley]

Yes. There is a training module on conflict of interest, which I think is offered by the Canada School of Public Service.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Is that comprehensive training?

[John Knubley]

Well, not training.... I think you can access it online. I forget what—

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Is everybody mandated to take that at the levels of deputy minister and assistant deputy minister?

[John Knubley]

I believe the answer is yes, but I think you'd have to ask PCO that one.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay.

Do you remember taking it yourself?

[John Knubley]

Yes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

How many times did you have to take it? Was it once a year, or was it just once?

[John Knubley]

I was in government for a long time, so I probably did it twice.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Would Andrew Noseworthy have been required to take that as well?

[John Knubley]

I would think so, but again, you'd have to ask Andy.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay.

Part of your role as well was to ensure that in that liaisonship, he was to tell you not just about policy or procedures or how the specifics relating to this commercialization were supposed to go. He was supposed to tell you everything that went on.

[John Knubley]

I think I need to say here, and it's important for members to understand, that the relationship between ISED and SDTC needs to respect the full independence of the agency. In fact, that was part of the way we thought about the relationship. In this case—and really in the case of all agencies that are independent and close to not-for-profits, like SDTC—the expectation is that the board and the management are responsible for the conflict of interest policies, the management of finances and the contribution agreement.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay. However, one would assume that this independence is so that the government doesn't interfere in the not-for-profit. If you had somebody sitting ex officio on the board, that information is supposed to go up. Is that correct? The interference isn't supposed to go down, but the information is supposed to go up. Was that not the role of Andrew Noseworthy at the time, to relate it to you as the deputy minister?

[John Knubley]

I think if you asked Andrew Noseworthy, and you should do that, he would say that he was very careful in how he participated in relation to these kinds of issues. The reason for this—

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Is that not what you expected of him, though? You were his boss.

[John Knubley]

Can I just finish this?

I happened to actually be the associate deputy minister of NRCan in 2007. There was an Auditor General's report in 2007 that actually sanctioned NRCan and Environment Canada for interfering too much in their operations and not respecting their independence. There's a very delicate balance in this case, and in all cases with agencies of this kind, in terms of the monitoring relationship.

Again, as I said, the responsibility for doing this fundamentally resides with the CEO and the chair of the board of SDTC.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Looking back at this entire situation, however, knowing that you specifically asked your assistant deputy minister to be that liaison, and knowing that it's not about interfering from the top down but in fact providing information from the bottom or from this organization up to you through that liaison agreement, are you not concerned, looking back now at what happened, that this was not occurring and that the information was not being shared upward—not interference downward, but information being shared upward?

[John Knubley]

I think what I can say is that I generally expected, as a deputy minister, that all agencies and departments I was responsible for would regularly develop, refine and implement policies for real or perceived conflicts. That was my job—to make it clear that this was their responsibility.