Evidence of meeting #151 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sdtc.
A video is available from Parliament.
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
What I understand.... I had participated in some of these interviews—
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
But you did state earlier today.... The comment was that you expected the Privy Council Office to address the conflict.
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
No, no, no, no. I said that when you go through a merit-based PCO process, there's a whole significant activity around conflict of interest. It's actually a form; it's about 40 pages about conflict of interest. A number of the candidates I know actually complained about the form.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Thanks, sir. I'm going to interrupt because I'm short of time.
It sounds like you were not aware.... This is not like one case of conflict of interest, or two, or 10, or 15. This was 90. It seems like the majority of the grant contributions were conflicted, and you're saying you were not aware of these.
I've been at committees for nine years—the government operations committee, this committee and other committees—and one thing that seems above all is that the bureaucracy, deputy ministers and ADMs are extremely risk-averse, and all have a CYA attitude. I'm trying to comprehend how there was such rampant conflict that your ADM, who would be going out of his way to ensure that he was covering himself, did not inform you of these and that you did not inform the minister.
How was all this kept secret, this rampant conflict of interest, hundreds of millions of taxpayers' dollars being possibly defrauded?
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
Let me tell you several things.
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
First of all, I was not a deputy minister during the period of COVID, when there were these blanket exemptions. Number two—
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
No, I'm sorry to interrupt, but these are not all just COVID-related, sir. These are not all COVID-related.
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
I'm aware of that, but having said that, as I've already testified, there was a clean bill of health—
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
—in 2018 and 2017. How would I, as a deputy minister, necessarily be aware of the—
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Are you saying that none of these conflicts happened between 2017 and your departure midway through 2019?
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
No, I understand that the Auditor General has identified these issues.
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
To be clear, in terms of the overall number—
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Let me move on to something else, sir, just quickly, because I'm almost out of time.
The contribution agreement between ISED and SDTC states, under section 20.03, that the foundation shall disclose to the minister within a month of the foundation first becoming aware of any actual or potential situations that may be reasonably interpreted as a conflict of interest or potential conflict.
Were any of these reported to you to report to the minister?
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
No. What I would say is that if you look at the evaluation of 2018, there is a reference to how, in the governance, there needed to be improved note-taking as well as improved reporting—
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Right, but I'm not talking about that. I'm talking specifically about the contribution agreement between—
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
Can I finish, please?
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
No. Sir, this is my time, and I asked a specific question.
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
Well, it's my time too.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
I'm not asking about 2017. I'm asking specifically about the contribution agreement.
At no time—90 conflicts and $400 million—was any conflict reported from the foundation. Is that what you're saying? As part of the contribution agreement, it's required, and yet no conflicts were ever reported.
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
Sorry, let me clarify. There is a process between SDTC and the department to report conflicts. This would go to the ADM of administration as well as the ADM of clean tech. That's a process.
There was one comment, when I was deputy minister, when there were suggestions or recommendations that the note-taking be improved relating to this, and that SDTC ensure that it passes on information to the department. I believe the Auditor General found that the information was not always flowing.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you, Mr. Knubley.
Our next member is Ms. Khalid.
You have the floor for five minutes, please.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you very much, Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Knubley, for appearing here today.
I just want to follow down the line of questioning of Mr. McCauley and try to put some context into exactly what is happening here.
When we talk about context, I appreciate that you have 40 years of context to provide us, which I think is really helpful. Back in 2014, I believe, Prime Minister Harper and his ministers were personally guiding some of the SDTC work. This was toward energy projects in the north, Arctic sovereignty, etc. The PM was really big on that at the time. It was PM Stephen Harper at that time.
Now, these projects unfortunately ended on a really sour note. I'm wondering if perhaps you can speak to the SDTC work early in your tenure as the deputy minister versus in your last year. Can you compare and contrast for us how ministers get involved in the work they do and what SDTC did back then and how it is now?