Evidence of meeting #151 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sdtc.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Yes, we asked him. He had similar memory lapses to what we're hearing here. You have a great insight into Ms. Verschuren's résumé, but you don't seem to remember a lot of things around SDTC. For example, Andrée-Lise Méthot, who was appointed in 2016, by her own admission had almost $20 million of conflicts while you were still the deputy.
Did Mr. Noseworthy never tell you that was going on?
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
No. The only thing that I knew about Lise Méthot was that she was also a member of the CEO sector table. She was an active member in that regard, talking about the issues of risk and venture capital relating to clean technology.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
They would declare at the beginning of every meeting who had conflicts in what projects. For the audit period from 2017 to 2023, the Auditor General found there were 186 of 226 instances where directors were conflicted—that's 82% of the time. I find it unbelievable that ADM Noseworthy would sit there, watching board members, 82% of the time, having to recuse themselves from the meeting, and that it would never be reported up.
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
Again, I think you will have to talk to Andrew Noseworthy on that one aspect of this, but—
Conservative
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
—one thing that I do understand, Mr. Perkins, is that not all the conflicts—
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
He was your “eyes and ears”, you said, in the board meeting, but it doesn't appear that the mouth worked in reporting back to you what he saw, according to you.
When ADM Noseworthy told the CEO, Leah Lawrence, that it's okay and that the government was going to appoint Ms. Verschuren anyway and manage the conflict, did that come from you or from somebody else?
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
It didn't come from me. I mean, the issue.... It did not come from me.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Who else was he taking orders from, then? If it wasn't from you, was he taking orders from the minister's office or the Prime Minister's Office? Who would have told him to tell the CEO, “We'll manage the conflicts”—the first and only chair of the board of SDTC, in its whole history, to have done business with it before being appointed?
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
I think he would have known what I reported I knew, which is that she had gone to the Ethics Commissioner and that she had also gone through the PCO process, which, as was told to you by Donnalyn McClymont, is an extensive conflict of interest process.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Your minister, Minister Bains, had amnesia as well. Ms. Verschuren, in her appearance before a parliamentary committee, said she didn't apply. A week later, her lawyers wrote to correct her statement, but usually the first statement is the correct one, where she said she never applied for anything in her life and that Minister Bains, your minister, called her twice to ask her to be the board chair.
Would Minister Bains have made those calls without your knowledge?
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
Yes. I was not involved in the appointment process.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
It doesn't seem like you were actually very involved in anything in the department. When you have conflicts going on 82% of the time, it seems convenient to say, “Oh, it wasn't me. My ADM, who reported to me, must have been getting orders from somebody else.”
Who else would he get orders from to do this, if not from you or the minister?
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
One of the points that I'd like to make is that SDTC was probably the smallest of 16 agencies that were in the portfolio.
Conservative
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
There were many appointments. I had to do them, not only for former minister Bains, but the ministers of—
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Was he freelancing? You've known him your whole life, it seems you said. Was he freelancing? Was that his nature, to make things up on his own without somebody else telling him to do it?
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
I'm sorry, but I don't know what you're asking.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
I'm asking you this. You said you didn't know who told him to say, “We'll manage the conflict.” You have, in your testimony today, said you've known him for 40 years. In that 40 years of knowledge, do you know him to have been a freelancer who would go on his own, or would he be taking orders from somebody else?
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
I'm sorry, but I never said I talked to former minister Bains on this issue. I never, in my 40 years of service in the public service, where I was proud to represent both the Conservative Party and the Liberal Party—
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
No. I'm sorry, but you said you've known Mr. Noseworthy—
Liberal
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Mr. Perkins, your time is up. We're going to come back to you on this.
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
Oh, I see you're talking about.... I apologize, Mr. Chairman.
