Evidence of meeting #154 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sdtc.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
When they said, “This director has a conflict” and then that director got the money, and then the next director got the money, and you were sitting in the meeting, was that not information to report back?
As an Individual
I had no way to independently assess, Mr. Chair, what holdings individual board members had or who, in fact—
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
They declared it and voted themselves. It didn't need to be independent. It was right before you.
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you, Mr. Perkins. I'm sure we'll come back to this.
Ms. Bradford, you have the floor for six minutes, please.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Noseworthy, for your attendance today.
What did your role consist of at ISED, particularly in relation to the SDTC file?
As an Individual
My role was assistant deputy minister of clean technology, where I had a broad range of responsibilities related to policy and coordination, in particular. Part of the work involved the department feeding into other work of the pan-Canadian framework on climate change. We did a great deal of work around understanding the specific needs of industry, in terms of both regulatory requirements and capital to grow capacity.
SDTC was an organization that we saw as important within that catchment group of federal organizations that supported clean tech. We had an outreach and some standard relationship with them. We did have one or two staff members within the department who were specifically responsible for financial oversight of the organization, and those folks focused most specifically on understanding the details of what was required in terms of cash appropriations and the like.
Liberal
As an Individual
I would say that the role was limited on an oversight basis. I believe it complied with the requirements of the contribution agreement. I saw our role, and I believe the staff saw our role, as principally one around policy and coordination, with SDTC recognizing its independence. Our role was simply the administration of the contribution agreement.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Can you speak to the extent of your participation during SDTC board meetings? What did your role and responsibilities consist of, exactly?
As an Individual
Mr. Chair, I saw my role as very limited in board meetings. I spoke at the invitation of the chair to provide an update where necessary on what was happening within the federal system on policy or program developments that would be germane to the work of the board. To my memory, I never spoke at the board on any matters during my time there. I was especially careful not to do so, to not bias or create a perception that I was seeking to influence the board's decisions or views.
November 27th, 2024 / 4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Following the board meetings, what was expected of you, both by the department and by SDTC? Were you meant to act as a conduit of information, or was information directly translated to individuals on both sides of the institution, and you were merely there to listen and answer any questions that may have been brought up?
As an Individual
Mr. Chair, I think that's a very interesting question. I believe that I was there mainly to offer information. I did occasionally receive information. I did not see my role there as having any measure of oversight or input on the administrative or project decisions of the organization.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Many colleagues here blame you and the department for sitting idly and failing to flag and act in the face of SDTC's failure to abide by its own conflict of interest policies, jeopardizing an entire foundation and taxpayer funding in the process. How do you respond to this criticism?
As an Individual
Mr. Chair, I take that criticism seriously. However, I would like the committee to understand the capacity that I had personally to assess those matters. I saw a package of materials that contained information on projects, usually two days before a board meeting. I attended the meetings, and other than that material, I had no way of independently assessing whether there were potential conflicts.
Most importantly, I recognize that it was the fiduciary responsibility of the board members there to act in accordance with their own rights and responsibilities, and I also had an expectation that SDTC would provide sufficient monitoring of that process and raise concerns with me if they felt there was a failure in that system. No one from SDTC ever raised a concern about conflict of interest with me, other than the specific concern the committee is aware of with Ms. Verschuren's chairmanship.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Were any potential conflicts of interest discussed during board meetings? How did you respond to those discussions, and were they escalated to ISED?
As an Individual
None, Mr. Chair, were escalated to ISED, and I don't recall a substantive discussion of a conflict of interest at the table, other than the recusals of people or the identification of issues that people felt merited a recusal. My understanding of the SDTC process is that most of the discussion on those types of matters would have happened at its project review committee, to which I was not a party, and I did not see its information.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
How were issues raised during board meetings communicated to ISED leadership? Was there a formal reporting process, and did you feel it was effective?
As an Individual
SDTC was an independent organization. In that context, it made its own decisions. It regularly informed the minister of decisions when it decided to fund projects, for example, or take major policy initiatives. It did that directly. There was regular communication between the department and SDTC on a range of things—that would be fair to say. For the most part, we were aware of significant policy approaches that they were looking to undertake, especially issues around potential changes in governance. Beyond those issues, we respected the fact that SDTC was an independent organization, and it informed the minister of its decisions.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Who was responsible for taking the minutes of the meeting?
As an Individual
I believe it would have been a corporate secretary, Mr. Chair. I cannot recall a specific person who would have been responsible for taking those minutes.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you. That is the time.
Up next is Madame Sinclair-Desgagné.
Mr. Noseworthy, could you just make sure your headset is set to English?
Make sure you select the right channel and hear the interpretation service so you can understand what Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné is saying.
Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you have the floor for six minutes.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Noseworthy, when Mr. Knubley, your immediate superior at the time, testified before the committee, he mentioned that he wanted to know what was going on in the agencies. He also confirmed that the duty of a liaison officer was to inform the department of what was going on in the agencies.
Mr. Knubley informed the committee that you were his eyes and ears. You attended several board meetings, including the two most important meetings with respect to the COVID‑19 payments. In a response to my colleague, you confirmed that you had read the contribution agreement. Payments related to COVID‑19 were not in compliance with the contribution agreement. You were present at the board meetings.
Did you say anything?
As an Individual
I'm sorry, Mr. Chair.
Is the question specifically about the COVID payments?