Public Accounts Committee on June 7th, 2022

[John Hannaford]

I'll turn to my colleague, Mr. Brown, on some of the details, but we certainly were very grateful for the advice that was provided by the task force and have taken note of the 10 recommendations that were contained in that. The legislation is intended as a series of principles that will guide our policy development with respect to just transition and, potentially, the creation of an advisory body.

On specific issues with respect to retirement benefits, I will turn to Mr. Brown.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

We have about 30 seconds.

[Andrew Brown]

Thanks for that question.

Certainly we are looking very closely at what is coming out of the consultations on a just transition and at what would then be included in legislation.

I would point out that existing programs are in place that are providing support to workers right now. Similarly, with respect to the skills and employment programming, there are supports in place right now.

We are looking at how we can leverage those programs to provide supports to workers and at where any adjustments may be necessary.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

We have two more members who will be asking questions.

Mr. Duncan, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This is for the commissioner.

As we wrap up the hearing today, this is maybe a bit of an opportunity for self-reflection, on the spot, about not only your report and the concerns you've outlined, but perhaps some of the responses we've heard from the various departments and the leadership responsible for implementing some of your recommendations.

You mentioned this in the section for support for workers not available during transition away from coal. The AG's report states on page 7, "Past examples of economic transitions demonstrate that if these transitions are not properly planned, they can fail to support Canadian workers and communities.”

In your opening, you alluded to several examples in Canadian history where the government response was not timely enough to match the programs to support workers. You've outlined this in your report again. You've heard the response today from Natural Resources Canada about the legislation to support workers, which you're advocating for.

Based on your report, your recommendations and on what you've heard today, are you confident that there's going to be a timely response in these supports, as you've recommended?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

I guess my reflection on that is that better late than never is the best we can do now in terms of this file. I would have much preferred to see timely action starting right with the commitment in 2015 and being ahead of the game.

It doesn't help a worker in Alberta or Saskatchewan right now to say that we will be ready when it comes around to Nova Scotia and New Brunswick in 2030. We needed timely action and we didn't have that.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

You're saying that it's been eight years now and Natural Resources Canada is in a consultation phase.

I want to get your reflections here.

Our fun job on the public accounts committee is to report back on your report. I just want to get you on the record here. Not only do we have your report and heard your recommendations, but we've also heard from Natural Resources Canada, for example. Are you confident now, based on your recommendations, that they are going to implement and change course? Is there actually going to be change to something different from the status quo? Again, looking out east and to those programs that are coming, do you have any more confidence from what you've heard today that they're going to be any more prepared to deal with this than they were before?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

I am more confident than if they had rejected our recommendations, but I'm also aware of the history of this file. Actions speak louder than words and actions have been lacking in Canada on climate change, a just transition and so on.

I am very pleased that this committee is looking into these issues because these are not just environmental issues, but issues that affect, as you know, economic and social aspects, so the more that this committee holds the government to account on these issues, the better off Canadians will be.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

I would argue they've been committed to it for eight years. They're still consulting; at year eight they're still doing a consultation on this. Again, what I'm hearing is that you think it's good that we're studying this and talking about this, but you don't have any better confidence today than you did before your report was tabled on the ability....

I'll say this as a constructive, respectful comment. I have never questioned the meaning, the efforts, the well-being or the interest of people or departments in this. It's their ability to actually deliver. Again, I'm not hearing from you resounding confidence to say that the timelines will be met. You believe they're committed, they mean well, but you're still not convinced that they're going to be able to meet the targets and the programs when they're actually needed, particularly as we move out east, for some of those transitions from coal.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Going back to your first comment, I'll be confident when I see the results. Good intentions are not enough.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

I'll leave it at that.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

We turn now to Ms. Bradford.

You have the floor for five minutes.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

This has been a report that largely looks at actions that haven't happened over the past number of years. I think at this point it's too late to do what we should have done before. Now we need to focus on what we're doing going forward.

Prior to being elected last fall, I was chair of a workforce planning board for Waterloo-Wellington-Dufferin, and we focused a lot on retooling the workforce for the jobs of the future. It seems to me that's really where our focus needs to be in the subject of this whole report.

I'm going to address this question to Mr. Brown.

Budget 2022 proposed a federal measure to support mid-career workers navigating the transition to the 21st century. Can you please tell us a little bit more about that?

[Andrew Brown]

Great.

Again, with regard to upskilling and re-skilling and your specific question about the budget 2022 commitment, there is work that we are continuing within the department to develop very specific proposals for providing support to mid-career workers. We're also using some of the programs that I've mentioned already, for example, the sectoral workforce solutions program. This is one where we're looking at people and at how we can provide them with the skills to be successful, specifically with the transition to a low-carbon economy.

Staying on the theme of mid-career workers, there was also a commitment in budget 2022 to work with provinces and territories on the labour market development agreements and the workforce development agreements. As you may know, these are the funding arrangements that we have with provinces and territories, which represents about $3 billion annually in training spending. These provide supports to more than a million individuals across the country each year. This is one of the areas as well where the federal government would like to make mid-career workers a priority.

There are other things that we're also doing there. The Government of Canada committed to launch a clean jobs training centre to help workers across sectors upgrade or gain new skills so as to be on the leading edge of the zero-carbon industry. This, again, is one of the things where we have been leveraging the consultations with respect to just transition to help inform the way that we would intend to take forward the clean jobs training centre.

Thanks.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Brown. That's terrific. In fact, you addressed my next question about the clean jobs training centre.

I know I don't have very much time. I just had a quick question for Mr. Hannaford.

You did refer to the consultation process that you've been involved in and you made reference to the “What We Heard” report that will be coming forward. Can you quickly tell us when we might expect to see that?

[John Hannaford]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It will be in the fall.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

That's great.

I think that's probably all the questions I have. I think we're getting pretty close to the end, unless there's someone else here on my side.

Do you have any other questions?

[Mike Morrice, Green, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I have one.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Go ahead, Mike.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

There's about a minute and 20 seconds.

[Mike Morrice, Green, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I'd love to have a follow-up answer from the commissioner on what he thinks it would take to move forward to ensure that the aspects mentioned by the task force and the CCPA become part of the legislation.

In that same vein of what could be done now, is there anything, Commissioner DeMarco, you want to share in terms of what you'd like to see from the government to follow through with on substantial, prosperous transition legislation?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Yes, we're seeing some signs of it in the comments from the witnesses today.

The way I would put it is that there are opportunities associated with this shift. There isn't a fixed amount of fossil fuels that we need to source in perpetuity. Those need to come down, and other sources of energy are going to come up. We need to have a new focus, more on what doors are going to be opened in terms of a prosperous future, rather than just on limiting the damage from the doors that are being closed. We need both sides of the coin. When one door closes, several other doors need to open, and we need to focus on both aspects for a just transition.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

We are going to close it at that.

I want to thank all of our witnesses for appearing today.

I apologize about some of the audio difficulties we had. I appreciated your patience with that while we worked towards a solution.

Just before I adjourn the meeting, I'm going to remind committee members that on Thursday, June 9, we'll be studying two draft reports in camera. The report on the “Public Accounts of Canada”, as well as “Report 13: Health and Safety of Agricultural Temporary Foreign Workers in Canada During the COVID-19 Pandemic”.

With that, I will adjourn the meeting.