Public Accounts Committee on June 14th, 2022

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm going to give you as much latitude as I can, but I do need to maintain parliamentary language at the committee. You're trying to do that while expressing frustration. I just ask that you continue to do that.

I'm going to turn back the clock, because we're getting off of the point. You have another minute and 48 seconds.

We'll go back to you, Mr. Desjarlais.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thanks again to my colleagues for your patience on this. It's something that I hope you can continue to learn more about, and understand more about, regarding the effects this has on indigenous communities. It's not nearly as easy as it is for us here to talk about this as it is for indigenous people to experience this. I'm using far greater language than they will. Trust me on that.

Second, to the point I'm trying to make here, how do we make sure—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I think you're being far more diplomatic than they would be.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Exactly, far more diplomatic.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That's exactly it, and I appreciate that.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

To my question now, it's on dates and timelines.

You mentioned in your former statement, after I had mentioned the failure of the department to reach the government's commitment on timelines, that it's actually the first nations communities that define the timeline. Why then ever make a commitment to begin with?

[Christiane Fox]

Thank you.

Maybe I would start my answer by saying that I raised the point around the difficulty and the sensitivity around water issues, and it's not unique to water. Working with a first nations community, when it comes to house fires or emergency management, fire, flooding, these are extremely challenging situations and we do have people, me included, who go on the ground and try to be that support.

I absolutely appreciate the frustration of the committee with respect to this work. That is what drives our resolve: the impact on people. I would just note to the chair that the department is taking this.... I know actions speak louder than any commitments that can be made, but there is action there.

There is also an understanding of the mental health impacts that this has on communities. Rebuilding that trust and investing into mental health specific to water impacts are other things the department takes very seriously and tries to work with partners.

When it comes to the lift, this is about a partnership. Nobody can decide to lift unless they have certainty that they have government funding, government support. I'm not suggesting that the lift is entirely the choice of a first nations band and council in the context of.... If they wouldn't have the funding, how could they make that choice?

What I'm saying is that at the end of the day, and I think this is important, government can't dictate when someone lifts, because if a community does not feel that the conditions are in place to lift, they should not and will not lift. That is important in the context that we have to ensure they have trust in the partnership, trust in the longevity of the commitment and trust that they have the capacity and operations in place to lift their advisory.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much, Ms. Fox. I appreciate that answer.

[Christiane Fox]

I really wanted to clarify that.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

This is still part of the second round, and we're turning to Mr. Patzer.

You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to everyone for being here.

Getting back to the issue of short-term advisories, are there some that are more likely than others to become long-term advisories?

[Christiane Fox]

Yes, there are some that have higher risk factors. As we look at short term, is it short term because it's going to be something more significant, like a complete replacement of a water treatment plant? Then obviously we take action accordingly. I would say that all of them have risk and that's as a result of falling into the category of short term, but some would be higher risk than others.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Okay. How many short-term advisories.... I guess maybe you just have a percentage, but if you have the total number, that would be great. How many short-term advisories that are lifted are put back on again? How often are they recurring, these short-term advisories?

[Christiane Fox]

We don't have the specific numbers, but we could get that to the committee for sure.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Yes, I think that would be very helpful for sure, if you could follow up with that.

[Christiane Fox]

Okay.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

I'll move on to another issue. It would be on training.

You referenced one first nation, for example, that only had one operator. I've worked in jobs previously where I was working on reserve and saw the same experience at other first nations as well, where there's only one guy operating.

What is being done to attract and get more people from the local communities engaged and trained in these jobs to make sure there's not just one person, or that there is a contingency plan for retirements or somebody moving on, etc.?

[Christiane Fox]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I think what I would say is that we are investing. We have a program called the circuit rider training program, which is essentially a $20 million per year program to fund water operators. We have particular outreach to youth in communities or those members of communities who may want to take this on.

There are a lot of considerations, though. It's about training. It's about ensuring the right salary dollars so that water operators, once trained, don't depart and go work for a bigger utility. That's always a risk factor. It's also about investing into the kinds of hubs that can be a bit of a network for those who are working in communities, so they have mentorship and/or expertise that they can go to, to troubleshoot and seek additional supports. I think of the Atlantic water authority, which will essentially provide water supports to a minimum of 17 first nations in the Atlantic Canada context. Through the transformation exercise and funding from the department, they will be able to kind of train in place and do regular continuous training, not just to go into new technologies when it comes to water.

It's a complex issue, and I think that, depending on the health of the community, that's also a consideration. We've talked to chiefs to say that we have more money on the table to perhaps train more operators, but at times their communities are facing significant intergenerational trauma or addictions issues and they're having a hard time mobilizing that workforce.

It's about all of the supports and not just the funding for the water operators. It's about mental health. It's about education. It's about that continuous support system through various services.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Thank you.

Ms. Hogan, you identified the workforce in your report. I'm wondering if you have any further comments on the workforce side of things.

[Karen Hogan]

Unfortunately, I can't speak to any of the progress since our report. I can tell you about some of our findings in the report, which covered a period that ended in November 2020. At that time, we noted that 26% of the public water systems lacked trained and certified operators, and approximately 56% lacked backup operators. The need to build that capacity is essential to helping support first nations communities going forward.

I also want to highlight that only about two-thirds of the homes are on public systems, so having that knowledge within a community will help that community going forward.

If you want a bit of information about the circuit training program, I think we looked at it in another audit. Perhaps Mr. Wheeler could add some thoughts if members are concerned and would like to hear about that.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

If you can, say something in 15 seconds, Mr. Wheeler.

[Glenn Wheeler, Principal, Office of the Auditor General]

From a historical perspective, we saw good things in the circuit rider program. Over the years, it was making an appreciable impact and improving capacity in first nations. However, as the Auditor General said, a lot more needs to be done to bring first nations up to the same level as other communities vis-à-vis capacity.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Turning now to Ms. Shanahan, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Let me say that I am very appreciative of the tone and the questions that we are hearing at this meeting. As my colleague Mr. Duncan likes to say, if it was a matter of throwing money at the problem, we could solve it. If it was a matter of setting target dates, I think we'd have something to aim at and we could get there.

However, it's a lot more complex than that, so I would like to hear from the deputy minister on some of those complexities that we're seeing, especially with small communities that sometimes only have a few hundred people. What is the government doing to support these communities in developing expertise and capacity in order to run their waste-water systems?

Chair, I will then give the remainder of my time to my good colleague Mr. Dong.

[Christiane Fox]

Mr. Chair, overall, I would say there are complexities around remoteness and building seasons, and complexities of programs and existing infrastructure in communities that impact the water system. From a high-level perspective, those are some of the key impacts.

In a post-COVID pandemic situation, we're in a different place where we have communities that were shut down during COVID for the protection of their members. That has brought some different complexities in delays, cost overruns or even the measures that needed to take place to have contractors in and out of the community in a time of a global pandemic. That's another complexity that has come into play.

I would say that, when I look down the list of every single water advisory that is left, I see that sometimes it's a trucking issue, sometimes it's a sewer plant issue and sometimes it's flooding or a fire that has impacted the water treatment plant. Right now, we have a huge issue with labour availability and even some of the parts required for construction.

There are a number of complexities involved. That's why I think that the action plan that goes community by community and paints out the realities of that community and the long-term goal, what some of the potential short-term fixes are and how to move them to final completion, is really important and part of the government's action plan.