Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 21st, 2022

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 33 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g) and the motion adopted by the committee on October 4, 2022, the committee is meeting today to undertake a study on “Report 2, Processing Disability Benefits for Veterans” of the 2022 Reports 1 to 4 of the Auditor General of Canada.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses.

First, online, I will turn to the Department of Veterans Affairs. We have, joining us by video conference, Paul Ledwell, deputy minister; Jonathan Adams, acting director general, finance; and Trudie MacKinnon, acting director general, centralized operations division.

From the Office of the Auditor General, we have Karen Hogan, Auditor General of Canada; and Nicholas Swales, principal.

From the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, we have Nadine Huggins, chief human resources officer, who is joining us virtually.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Mr. Chair, were the sound checks conducted?

I ask because we have a lot of people participating virtually.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I was told that the sound checks were conducted.

Is there a problem?

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Someone doesn't have their headset, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

All right.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

It matters because it affects the hearing of the interpreters.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Richards, you'll probably need a headset if you have one.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Mr. Chair, I do have an external link, though, which has far higher sound quality than the headset, so if that's acceptable I'll use that. If they prefer I use the headset, I'll do that. I do have one available.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

If you wouldn't mind grabbing your headset, I'm told it is better for the interpreters.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

No problem, Mr. Chair. I'll use it when I'm speaking, because I don't find the quality better when I'm listening.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That's fine. Thank you.

Welcome back. It's nice to see you in person.

You will each have five minutes to make your opening statement.

Ms. Hogan, we will begin with you. It's nice to see you again. You have the floor. Thank you.

[Karen Hogan, Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for this opportunity to discuss our report on processing disability benefits for veterans, which was tabled in the House of Commons on May 31, 2022.

I would like to acknowledge that this hearing is taking place on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe people.

Joining me today is Nicholas Swales, the principal who was responsible for the audit.

The objective of the Veterans Affairs Canada disability benefits program is to compensate veterans for the effects of service-related injuries or illnesses on their lives. Veterans include current and former members of the Canadian Armed Forces and the RCMP.

We looked at whether Veterans Affairs Canada was taking appropriate actions to reduce wait times for veterans to receive the disability benefits they were entitled to in order to support their and their families’ well-being.

Delays in receiving benefits may have an impact on access to care or other programs and services administered by the department. In some cases, veterans may feel a lack of respect or appreciation for their service.

Despite the department’s initiatives to speed up the processing of applications for disability benefits, veterans were still waiting a long time to receive compensation for injuries sustained in their service to Canada. We found that veterans were waiting almost 10 months for a decision on a first application, which is much longer than the department’s service standard.

In addition, francophones, women, and RCMP veterans had to wait longer than others. There were various reasons for the delays experienced by members of each of these groups.

Of particular note, RCMP veterans waited an average of 38% longer to receive decisions on their applications than Canadian Armed Forces veterans. Part of this could be explained by the fact that the funds paid by the RCMP to Veterans Affairs Canada did not align with the volume of applications that required processing. In addition, we noted that both the funding and almost half of the employees on the team responsible for processing all applications were temporary. The department also lacked a long-term staffing plan.

In recent years, Veterans Affairs Canada implemented several initiatives to try to make application processing more efficient. However, the department’s data on how it processes benefit applications and the organization of this data were poor. As a result, neither our office nor the department were able to measure whether and to what extent each initiative improved efficiency and helped reduce wait times. Furthermore, the department did not always calculate wait times consistently, which meant that veterans waited longer than the department reported publicly.

Overall, the impact of these shortcomings means that more work is needed to reduce wait times. Our veterans are waiting too long to receive benefits.

Veterans Affairs Canada and the RCMP agreed with all four of our recommendations.

Mr. Chair, this concludes my opening remarks. We would be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much, Ms. Hogan.

We will now proceed to Veterans Affairs Canada, please.

You have the floor for five minutes.

[Paul Ledwell, Deputy Minister, Department of Veterans Affairs]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for the invitation to be with the committee here today with my colleagues and to address an issue that is of a critical nature in our department's service and response to our veterans.

We very much appreciate the effort that went into the Auditor General's report about the processing of disability benefits for veterans, and the recommendations that came out of it. We have, as the Auditor General has just indicated, accepted all the recommendations of this report, and we are making significant improvements to address each of them.

In fact, even before the report was released, Veterans Affairs had already been working on the very issues the report outlines with respect to processing times for our veterans.

Before I share further improvements we've made, it is important to explain that veteran disability benefits are a very unique aspect compared to other government benefits. Every veteran's situation is individual. We must review every application and assess each of them carefully, to ensure the right supports are provided to our veterans.

Since the audit period ended, in September 2021, the department has made some real, tangible progress, most notably reducing the backlog by 41%. The backlog is the number of applications over the service standard. Our service standard is 16 weeks, 80% of the time. As of September 29, 2022, 9,687 applications were over the service standard of the total 30,725 pending.

We know that these numbers are still too high, but it's a significant improvement from where they used to be. Provided that intake levels remain consistent, the department expects that by June 2023, we will meet the service standard and will have cut the number of applications waiting longer than our service standard to 5,000.

As of April 1, 2022, the department updated how it defines the processing times for the purpose of its service standard. Aligned with recommendation two, the department modified the end date calculation to include the date when a payment was actually received by the veteran, now part of our 16 weeks. Therefore, all turnaround times and service standard results for disability benefits reported for the fiscal year 2022-23 will represent the time between when we receive a complete application and when a payment is made to the veteran.

So far this fiscal year, 56% of disability benefits first applications have been completed within the service standard, compared to 46% in the last fiscal year. Again, our objective is to get to 80% by June 2023, assuming intake remains stable.

Regarding RCMP formal costing and funding, Veterans Affairs Canada and the RCMP are working to create better processes for forecasting how much it would cost our department to administer disability benefits for RCMP clients.

With respect to data weaknesses, we know we have to improve. We are already under way to better track the impact of our wait times reduction initiatives to support disability benefits processing. Importantly, as the Auditor General has indicated, the department has also made progress in addressing the turnaround times for female and francophone veterans. From the first quarter of 2019-20, the average turnaround time was 55 weeks. By the end of the fourth quarter of 2021-22, the turnaround time was reduced to 43.5 weeks, an improvement of 11.5 weeks.

Since establishing a dedicated processing team for applications of female veterans last year, the average turnaround time improved from 40 weeks to 28 weeks as of September 2022. We have closed the gap between processing times for male and female veterans, and those are now at an equivalent.

Finally, we're committed to exploring options for long-term resources to help us make more timely decisions and deliver on our service standard into the future. Our efforts remain focused on maintaining the resourcing we have in place, so we can respond to our veteran clients as quickly as possible, continue our progress, and achieve our service standard for all veterans.

There should be no question that our department cares deeply and respects deeply the veterans of this country. We want to ensure they and their families receive the assistance they require through us.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. I appreciate that.

We'll now turn to the RCMP, for five minutes, please.

[Nadine Huggins, Chief Human Resources Officer, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. Thank you for your invitation today.

The commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Brenda Lucki, is unavailable to attend due to prior engagements.

I am Nadine Huggins, the chief human resources officer of the RCMP. I respectfully acknowledge that since I'm in Ottawa today, I'm greeting you from the traditional and unceded territory of the Anishinabe nation.

I assumed the position of CHRO in May 2022, and I'm honoured to support the important and demanding work that our members perform to serve communities and keep Canadians safe. I joined the RCMP leadership team in 2020 to lead the development of our people management modernization agenda, which includes improving services to our veterans and current members.

I welcome this opportunity to speak with you about the report of the Auditor General of Canada related to the processing of disability benefits for veterans, which was tabled in May 2022. The RCMP was a participant in this audit and welcomes the recommendations.

The RCMP's relationship with Veterans Affairs Canada is long-standing. Veterans Affairs Canada provides the RCMP with benefits administration services, which include processing, adjudicating, paying and providing other support services, such as transition interviews and case management services, to eligible RCMP clients. VAC is a key partner in the delivery of our disability benefits program.

In 2013-14, RCMP clients represented only 10% of Veterans Affairs Canada's client base. Currently, there are approximately 22,000 veteran and active members, or their survivors, who receive disability or survivor benefits through VAC. This represents 21% of Veterans Affairs Canada's client base.

Veterans Affairs Canada processes almost 16,000 applications for on-duty injuries that are submitted by RCMP members or veterans each year. They also process RCMP member applications on other special allowances, such as the exceptional incapacity allowance, and clothing and attendance allowances. These allowances are important to supporting our permanently disabled members who require additional care and treatment.

Our members and employees are at the core of our organization. Our members serve communities and protect Canadians at municipal, provincial, territorial, federal and international levels. Member responsibilities include preventing and investigating crime, maintaining peace and order, and contributing to national security. Our members strive to serve with dignity and respect. They risk their safety in the delivery of that service and, as we know from this week, their lives as well. We recognize and value the work and commitment of our members. If they are injured in the line of duty, we want to ensure that they and their survivors receive eligible benefits in a timely manner to support their well-being.

Over the last two years, the RCMP has been working closely with Veterans Affairs Canada to enhance governance and implement more robust processes to support forecasting financial requirements related to disability benefits. The RCMP and Veterans Affairs Canada are working collaboratively to ensure that benefit payments continue uninterrupted for eligible members and veterans.

Our members are individuals who face unique situations in the performance of their duties, and the response by Veterans Affairs Canada must also be individualized. We fully support a focus on efficiency and on ensuring that our members and veterans receive a thorough assessment of their needs so that the benefits and supports they require are in place.

In closing, I'd like to reinforce that the RCMP is committed to collaborating and working in partnership with Veterans Affairs Canada to address the recommendations from the Office of the Auditor General. We will continue to strengthen the oversight of our disability benefits program for our members, veterans and their dependants. We are committed to ensuring that those who continue to serve, those who have served and their survivors have the support they need to maintain their well-being.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

We have a fair bit to get through today, so I'm going to begin right away by turning to Mr. Richards.

You have the floor for six minutes for your questioning. Please begin.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thank you.

I wanted to start with the Auditor General's office today, but as I listened to Mr. Ledwell, the deputy minister, I couldn't help but note that we've just heard a pretty damning report and testimony from the Auditor General in terms of the service standards, and we have not seen that only from the Auditor General. We've seen that from the veterans affairs committee of Parliament. We've seen that from the veterans ombudsman. We've seen that from the PBO. It just seems to go on and on. The reports that are coming out are absolutely condemning the service standards that we're seeing at Veterans Affairs, particularly over the last seven years.

I heard a lot of “Well, we're trying to do a little better” and that kind of stuff. That's great, but I really think that when it comes to providing service, our veterans deserve the utmost consideration and the utmost respect for the service and the sacrifice they have provided to this country.

I have to ask this, Mr. Ledwell. Does the current performance of this department seem to you like showing veterans the level of service they deserve, the kind of respect they deserve? I just didn't hear any of that in your statement. Do you not have some shame and some embarrassment as to the performance of this department when you hear all these kinds of damning allegations about terrible service, data that seems to be in disrepair, staffing levels? Do you not have any feeling of shame or embarrassment about the performance of this department and the desire to do much, much better?

[Paul Ledwell]

Mr. Chair, I very much accept and appreciate the question from the honourable member. I don't share shame; I share a challenge. I share the absolute underlining that we are here to provide care and respect to our veterans, one by one—not just in large numbers, but one by one to each veteran who comes forward to us seeking that interest.

This is an issue that has been faced in this department for some time. We've tackled this issue, and we have made progress. I think I underlined that in some of the early remarks. We have made significant progress. Is it good enough? No, it's not good enough. We are not at the service standard that we have established ourselves in relation to what's important to meet and support the veterans who come forward.

Are we confident that we will get there? Yes, we are confident that we will get there with the resources that we have at play now and, importantly, not just to meet that standard but to maintain that standard. That's absolutely critical and consequential.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I certainly hope that you can find a way to live up to that, because what we're seeing now is completely unacceptable.

I probably will have some more questions for you, Mr. Ledwell, but I do want to gather a bit more information from the Auditor General.

I don't know if it's appropriate to ask questions of Mr. Swales—I understand that you were the one working on the audit directly—but I would be happy to do that. If the Auditor General herself wishes to answer, that's fine, too.

What we're hearing—over the last seven years in particular—is that this department has failed to meet its service standards. About 16 weeks is kind of the standard that they have for processing. What you've identified here is a median of about 39 weeks. I note that that's from the point when the application is considered complete, so once there's been some back-and-forth potentially between the veteran and the workers at Veterans Affairs.

I guess what I want to ask is this: What is the actual length of time from when a veteran is submitting an application? I note in your report that you talk about something here where we're looking at probably 48 weeks being the actual length of time once we add in the amount of time that's being taken for that consideration of an application being complete. Is that correct?

What length of time, when you add that portion in, is the average processing time for a case, and what would be some of the longest times we're seeing in terms of processing? Obviously, 48 weeks or 39 weeks or anything like that is far from being acceptable. What would be some of the longest cases—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Richards, I'm going to interrupt you because we're down to about 40 seconds.

The Auditor General's office has the floor.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Okay, thank you.

[Karen Hogan]

You absolutely can ask questions of Nick, and he'll gladly jump in.

You're right about the 48 weeks when we factored in the time that happens after a decision is made. Once a decision is made on eligibility, that's when the severity of a claim is determined, and then a payment happens. The difference between the median of 39 weeks and 48 weeks is factoring in that additional time.

I'll turn to Nick to talk to you about some of the longer times that we saw.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Swales, I am going to have to come back to you on that, so just hold that question. I believe Mr. Richards has other rounds, so he's welcome to either start it with you or go to another question, but I am going to have to suspend that right there.

Mr. Fragiskatos, you have the floor for six minutes, please. It's over to you.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Chair, thank you very much.

Thank you to all witnesses for being here today.

I also want to ask Mr. Ledwell questions to begin with.

Sir, thank you for your work. I know it's not an easy job, and we appreciate your openness and candour in coming before the committee.

I simply want to look at some key recommendations from the Auditor General, because they have been agreed to by Veterans Affairs. Could you give an update to this committee as to where things are?

Recommendation 2.31, which I will read into the record, states, “Veterans Affairs Canada and the RCMP should work together to establish a formal costing process and determine the right level of funding needed for processing applications from RCMP veterans in a timely manner.”

I will ask you, Mr. Ledwell, where we are on that, and I will ask Ms. Huggins for her thoughts as well.