Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 21st, 2022

[Trudie MacKinnon]

I want to clarify that it is the medical research that we use, and also that the way military service affects male anatomy versus female anatomy can be quite different. For example, carrying a 90-pound rucksack on your back might affect a male differently than a female. I just want to clarify that.

The other thing is, for example, that we have just recently updated our medical guidance with regard to sexual dysfunction. Sexual dysfunction is often a result we see when we're dealing with people who suffer from mental health issues. One of the impacts of those mental health issues is sexual dysfunction. We have recently updated our guidance, our medical research and our medical information to our staff so they can take that into account for female veterans and be aware of how that impacts female veterans versus male veterans.

We will continue to update the medical guidance we have so that it is reflective of that and so a GBA+ lens is applied to all of the medical information we use to make our decisions.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

The member's turn is up.

We now go to Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné for two and a half minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you.

I'm looking for a quick explanation regarding the discrepancy in processing times for applications submitted by francophones versus anglophones. What I've gathered from the answers provided so far is that the discrepancy is mainly due to a lack of French-speaking staff at the department.

Is that correct, Mr. Ledwell?

[Paul Ledwell]

Yes, that's correct.

We worked very hard to hire more French-speaking staff.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I don't have much time, so I'd appreciate it if you would answer my next question in just a sentence or two.

A huge number of people have left the department. The numbers speak for themselves, and we've asked questions about that before.

How do you intend to keep francophone staff given the ongoing labour shortage?

[Paul Ledwell]

It's important to make sure that both the work and the objectives are clear and that employees have job security. We want employees to be happy so they will continue to do this important work for years to come.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Very good.

The NDP member brought up the rather blatant discrimination against certain groups. It's worth noting that cases involving every possible type of discrimination exist at Veterans Affairs Canada.

To begin with, first nations people have virtually no voice at the department. That's outrageous.

Second, women's bodies have apparently changed so much over time that the department is incapable of establishing requirements and standards for women soldiers. It's mind-boggling.

Third, francophones face challenges when dealing with the department.

In a nutshell, Veterans Affairs Canada is a bit of a laboratory for every kind of bad experience a veteran can have. The department is actually an excellent representation of the Canadian government and its inability to deliver services to people who served their country.

Frankly, I was disappointed, to say the least, with some of the answers I heard, particularly regarding the physiological differences between women and men and the impact on the requirements for women.

Other studies have revealed the existence of systemic discrimination. Obviously, first nations people are the first ones to face that discrimination. However, I do want to make something clear to all the witnesses: francophones still face systemic discrimination and will continue to face systemic discrimination until they are treated with more respect.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

It's now over to Mr. Desjarlais for two and a half minutes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses again for being present on this very important topic. I hope that the advice and testimony we heard today will be taken up and we won't have to return to some of these subjects at the next audit.

I want to turn now to staffing. We heard from my colleagues here some consideration of issues around staffing and the relationship they have to time. In February 2022, $139.6 million over two years was announced to extend temporary positions as part of action to reduce the processing times we're talking about right now.

My question is for the deputy minister. How many new personnel have been hired? Just give the number, please.

[Paul Ledwell]

Between replacement of those who might have left and new hires, there have been about 150 new staff.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much for that.

As a follow-up on that, how many of these new personnel have been permanent hires?

[Paul Ledwell]

None of the personnel are permanent hires.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Do you mean zero?

[Paul Ledwell]

Zero.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Okay.

How many of these new positions have been outsourced to private contractors?

[Paul Ledwell]

On the disability processing, none of these positions have been outsourced.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much for that.

My last questions will be for the Auditor General's office, just in following up on the last portion of our conversation about making sure that if there's another audit on some of this, we can take seriously the condition of indigenous people in this country and ensure that we go beyond just GBA+. It was clear in your report that you were able to find information related to francophones and women. There should be comparable evidence for indigenous people.

Will the Auditor General's office commit to a more robust process for ensuring that indigenous data is followed up with in any new recommendations in the future?

[Karen Hogan]

Actually, as I think all the members here in the committee know, I've made many commitments to ensure that all of our audit reports consider equity, diversity and inclusion, and part of that is to hold the government to account for its commitment to consider gender-based analysis plus in all the work it does.

The comment of the honourable member does not fall on deaf ears. I am absolutely very much committed to ensuring that every voice in Canada is heard, and I will do my best to always ensure that the indigenous perspective is considered in our reports. I do know that it is considered in many that we already do—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. That is the time.

For the sake of equity, I'm going to turn now to Mr. Richards, but only for two minutes, and then to Mrs. Shanahan for a brief two minutes. Then we will wrap things up.

Mr. Richards, you have the floor for two minutes, please.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

In addition to this audit, which showed appalling service levels, just in the last few months we've had a number of other reports. In June 2022, we had a report of the veterans affairs committee in Parliament condemning all kinds of terrible service standards in Veterans Affairs. We had the Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, at the end of last month, in September, again condemning the terrible service standards in Veterans Affairs. Then we had, of course, the veterans ombudsman just last week with the same thing, with a terrible report card on the service standards that we're seeing in Veterans Affairs.

These are people who fought and in some cases died for this country. We're talking about their families. We're talking about serving our veterans who have been injured in duty to this country. We're talking about situations where, in some cases, we're seeing a median of 48 weeks from the start of an application to getting a decision—some are two years or more in order to get a decision—and that's completely unacceptable. Service standards haven't been met in seven years—since this government took office.

A great example of that is mental health services. In the last year of the previous Conservative government, the standards of 16 weeks 75% of the time were being met and, in this last audit, only 41% of the time. I know there has been some argument that applications have gone up—no doubt—but there also has been a huge increase in the number of staff, and yet the job isn't getting done.

I just need to underscore—I can't underscore this more—that veterans serve this country. They deserve our respect. They deserve our care. They deserve our compassion. And what they're getting right now is not that. They're getting an appalling situation.

Veterans Affairs, you have to do better.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. That is your time, Mr. Richards.

Now we're turning to Mrs. Shanahan.

You have the floor for two minutes, please.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses who appeared here today, because what I have heard is that this is an evolving situation.

We all know that Canadian Forces were in Afghanistan and that was wrapping up prior to 2015. In spite of knowing that, the previous Conservative government cut funding and closed Veterans Affairs offices. I would like to ask the deputy minister, if this government had not invested more than $340 million since that time, where would the wait times be and where do you see the future trends?

[Paul Ledwell]

There's no question that the wait times would be far, far worse than they are, and we do acknowledge that we have more work to do. We are doing that work. We are making progress.

In addition to the investments around the disability processing to ensure that the veterans get the supports they need, there's also been $11 billion in supports directly to veterans since 2015. That's made a huge increase...in the lives of those veterans and their families. We see that every day.

Again, we are working hard to make sure that we are working in a timely fashion to get those benefits in place for our veterans. It's tremendously important.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

That concludes this portion of the meeting. I would like to thank all of the witnesses for coming in today, virtually and in person.

I'm going to suspend this meeting until the clerk returns. We're going to move immediately into committee business because we have a lot to do.

We hope to see the Auditor General and other folks back very soon. Thank you.

I'll suspend very briefly.