Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 21st, 2022

[Paul Ledwell]

As I think both Ms. Huggins and I have indicated, we are working very closely and collaboratively on this. In fact, we have a joint oversight committee that began its work before the report came out, to address this matter and to bring forward the costing considerations so that we can properly address these matters.

As Ms. Huggins indicated, we have seen a spike, a really large increase, in the number of applications coming forward from former RCMP members. It's critical that we have in place not only the means to be able to address these, but the understanding so that we're properly responding to the interests and the considerations of those former RCMP officers who have served and come forward looking for support, disability support in particular.

We are working now on that costing. I can tell you that it will be coming forward in short order so that we can properly consider not just how we respond to this immediately, but how we sustain a response to this for the next several years. That is under way. We will have that in place by March 2023.

[Nadine Huggins]

All I can do is echo my colleague Mr. Ledwell. We are working quite diligently at senior levels within the organization to make sure that we are paying attention and doing a better job of forecasting what the costs of the program will be. As he mentioned, we do expect that, toward the end of the fiscal year, we will have an opportunity to have a better line of sight on that costing framework going forward.

Thank you.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I want to look at another recommendation, the one that follows, 2.36: “To provide useful waiting-time information for veterans, Veterans Affairs Canada should review the end date it uses to calculate the period under its service standard so that it can report consistently and accurately on its performance against this standard.”

Mr. Ledwell, where are we there?

[Paul Ledwell]

We have made that adjustment, honourable member. As I indicated in my opening comments, one issue we have addressed, which has been in place since the beginning of this fiscal year, April 1, is the calculation of the time. It includes the receipt of payment by the veteran. That has been factored in. That was a very specific consideration and recommendation that was brought forward through the audit report. That has been effective and is already at play.

We have updated our standard as well so that, consistently going forward, beginning this fiscal year, we will see a clearer, tightened and more transparent standard that we can not only reflect internally—not just within the department but across government—but, most importantly, report on and be transparent on with our veteran communities so that they understand how we are doing on their behalf.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, how much time do I have?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have about a minute and a half, sir.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Finally, recommendation 2.52 reads as follows: “Veterans Affairs Canada should address weaknesses in the quality and organization of its data. This would allow the department to better monitor the Disability Benefits program and use the data to inform decision making about efficiency improvements.”

Mr. Ledwell, where are we there?

[Paul Ledwell]

Honourable member, we've taken a number of initiatives around this, acknowledging that the data is an area that we need to improve in terms of both our understanding and our use, and then its application. We've created a data stewards committee through the work of our chief digital officer. We've identified objectives with respect to this program to ensure that we are tracking the right data, that we are reporting on that data and that we're reflecting on the impact of the work that's being done, again, in a consistent manner.

This is an area that we've taken very seriously. We will have more to report on this after this fiscal year, and each and every fiscal year that is ahead of us.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That's about it. You have 10 seconds.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I don't think I can fit anything into that.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

No, it would be tough.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Not even Kelly McCauley could do it. So that's fine.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Very good.

We now go to Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné for six minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

It's appropriate that you're here given what an important discussion this is.

I want to start by recognizing how terrible the situation is. It's clear that the department's treatment of veterans overall is appalling, not to mention the service disparities. It will come as no surprise that many of my questions have to do with the fact that francophones wait exceedingly longer for decisions than anglophones.

Let's travel back in time for a moment. In 2018, a report was released entitled “Meeting Expectations: Timely and Transparent Decisions for Canada’s Ill and Injured Veterans”.

According to the report, francophones and women waited longer than other applicants, and the differences appeared to be arbitrary and not based on a difference in needs. In the 2016‑17 fiscal year, francophones waited an average of 45 weeks for decisions, whereas anglophones waited 24 weeks. The person who was contacted at the time, Mr. Harris, indicated that parity between francophones and anglophones would be achieved by the end of 2021. We are now nearing the end of 2022, so it's a year later.

The Auditor General's report is also quite scathing. It reveals that, at the end of the day, the situation hasn't improved much. Despite all the funding and effort, the absolutely shocking disparity in the service provided to francophones and anglophones persists.

My first question is for the deputy minister from Veterans Affairs Canada.

Mr. Ledwell, what are you going to do to correct the situation as soon as possible?

[Paul Ledwell]

Thank you for your question.

You're right to raise the issue. As you mentioned, it's something that's been happening for months, even years.

We set up teams dedicated to processing those files. We allocated more staff to process applications from francophone veterans, and we've made some progress. There is a backlog, and we still have work to do.

The same goes for applications from women. We created a team to process applications submitted by women, and we've been able to achieve parity in the wait times for women and men. We have the same goal for francophone and anglophone applicants. It's extremely important. I agree with you. We must fix the problem, and we are working on it. We have made some headway, but we still have work to do.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Here's my next question. How do you measure processing improvements when it comes to wait times? The indicators seem to have been deemed inadequate, to say the least.

How do you plan to improve the indicators? We need the facts about what's happening with the processing of veterans' applications.

[Paul Ledwell]

A member of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs asked a similar question. It comes down to using a consistent indicator. We created one at the beginning of the fiscal year, and it will be used for our quarterly reporting. We have already cut wait times for francophone applicants by nearly 10 weeks. That's not enough, but it's progress. We still have a long way to go, but we are committed to correcting the situation.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have a minute left.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I see.

My next question is for the Auditor General.

In your report, you say and I quote: “We found that first applications from francophones were processed in 46 weeks, while those from anglophones took 38 weeks.”

I was a bit surprised that you didn't make a recommendation to address that discrepancy.

What recommendations do you have for the department on improving processing times for francophone applications?

[Karen Hogan]

We didn't make a recommendation to address processing times for francophone applications, specifically, because we found that the processing times for all applications needed to be improved. That said, the department definitely needs to focus on those populations whose applications take longer to process.

I would recommend that the department pinpoint where the bottlenecks are. Then it would know where to make improvements. In our audit, we noted that the department had numerous initiatives to improve processing times but didn't know whether those initiatives had resulted in shorter or longer wait times.

The first step is identifying the bottlenecks. The second step is targeting the measures appropriately. The last step is figuring out whether those measures contributed to shorter wait times.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for six minutes, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all of the witnesses who are with us in the room and those who are present online.

This is a pretty timely moment for us, coming towards Remembrance Day. I want to thank my colleague, the previous speaker from the Bloc, who mentioned the realities facing francophone communities and veterans. I think it's an important aspect from my colleague, and a differentiation that I think is important in order to deliver that respect and that quality of service to those veterans.

In a similar vein, I am disappointed to see that there is a lack of mention of indigenous veterans. I know that the deputy minister knows about this fact. My colleagues have spoken directly with the deputy minister on the realities facing indigenous veterans. For the sake of Canadians' understanding of what indigenous veterans are going through, colleagues of mine in this room, particularly my colleague from Edmonton, know that it's predominantly indigenous veterans who are accessing the veterans food bank in Edmonton right now. That is a reality.

I was also part of the settlement in 2016 on behalf of Métis veterans. The deputy minister, I remember.... We sought to relieve Métis veterans who weren't even getting payment for their service in World War II. That's the condition. This is the same ministry that failed to give payment for the service of Métis veterans, my family members, who would die without their payment for their service to this country.

Think about the reality that indigenous people would have to even put their lives on the line, and the remarkable show of courage and strength they demonstrate in their own lives to just survive the catastrophe that's been our people's experience here. To do all that and enlist, to join Canadians, to fight side by side, and then to be denied these really basic services is a shame. Indigenous veterans deserve better. They deserve to be seen. They deserve to be studied and understood and listened to. We're not even there yet.

It's nice to see that francophones and women and other groups that are important to this study have access to that data, but we're invisible. Indigenous peoples' experiences as Canadian veterans are invisible. That's a heartbreak. I'm certain that every member of this committee feels the same way. It's unacceptable when the government has asked that we take a whole-of-government approach to reconciliation and in fact our veterans don't even have this basic access to even know where they are in the queue. Even our Auditor General's office fails to make mention of this failure.

This is a difficult position we're in right now. If I can do anything, it's to leave the witnesses with an impression of how important this work is and how we all have a responsibility, even at the Auditor General's office, to understand what's not here. I was pleased to see that there was a gender-based analysis plus review in this, with women veterans and francophone veterans, but I hope you understand the severity and the importance of indigenous veterans to this country and the role that indigenous veterans can play in our bringing together and uniting this country. The more we continue to neglect the fact that indigenous veterans aren't even seen....

The ministry is not even collecting data. We can't even ask questions and hold the government accountable as to when indigenous veterans, or if indigenous veterans, are even getting benefits. You would think that this would be something the Auditor General's report would say, but it lacks that clarity. The closest we come is in recommendation 2.52, where it's addressing “weaknesses in the quality and organization of its data”, but it needs to be far more specific.

My question for the deputy minister is this. Knowing these things—and you've been informed of this for a long time—what efforts is your ministry making to ensure that you collect indigenous-related data?

[Paul Ledwell]

Honourable member, thank you so much for this question.

You're quite right to underline this issue. It's something that we are, in fact, attentive to. I should say that there is a long history of indigenous Canadians who have served and have sacrificed. Even just a few days ago, we saw the unveiling of a Canada Post stamp honouring Tommy Prince and his service to his country, which is really quite remarkable. There are so many stories like his that we need to recognize, commemorate and take up in terms of our understanding and our addressing of issues with respect to indigenous veterans.

Recently, for the first time in 50 years, the census asked a question, an identifier about veterans. For the first time since 1971, we have data through our national census identifying veterans. Within that, we've been able to identify that in excess of 23,000 indigenous veterans have self-identified as part of that census data. That gives us a clear and rich understanding. It's not enough, though, to understand the numbers, the population and the community that we are dealing with; we need to actually engage.

We, as a department, have been engaging through the Métis National Council, the AFN and local councils to really understand, appreciate and better serve our indigenous veterans. This is a matter that will be of great priority to us. It is of great priority and it will be an increasingly great priority.

I really look forward to engaging with you and with others to see how we can better represent, better serve and better appreciate indigenous Canadians who have served in uniform.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. That expires the time.

Coming now to the second round, I'm going to go back to Mr. Richards.

Mr. Richards, you can either take the microphone or turn things right over to Mr. Swales and allow him to answer your question. It is your option, but I just wanted to flag that you did have that question for him that went unanswered in the first round.

I pass it over to you, sir, for either comments or direction.