Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 21st, 2022

[Karen Hogan]

Once the data weaknesses have been pinpointed, it's certainly possible to improve the quality of those data with appropriate and targeted corrective actions.

We found that the problem wasn't just the data. In some cases, the problem likely came down to errors. As Mr. Swales mentioned, some applications were in the system for 10 years. I would hope that human error was to blame and that it wasn't actually true, but it's really important to check the data.

Understanding the measures that are put in place is important, and so is setting targets to know whether those measures lead to any improvement. In other words, it's about not just the organization of the data related to the applications. It's also about the organization and targets that go along with new measures that are put in place. That's what will show whether those efforts have led to processing improvements.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

My next question is for the deputy minister.

What are your targets in the short term in order to track progress?

[Paul Ledwell]

Our first objective is to have clearer data, not just internally, but also externally. We are also establishing consistent standards.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I don't mean to cut you off, but do you have a clear figure for your target pertaining to wait times?

I believe you mentioned 16 weeks. Do you have a date in mind for when you'll achieve that service standard? Do you have a timetable?

[Paul Ledwell]

As I mentioned in my opening remarks, we expect to reach our target by June 2023.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

That's great news. I will be paying close attention.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Very good.

Thank you.

We'll now turn to Mr. Desjarlais.

You have the floor for two and a half minutes, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to continue on my last line of questioning, related to the lack of indigenous data and the lack of understanding about the conditions of indigenous veterans in our country. I'd like to address this question finally with the deputy minister.

You gave me a number collected by Stats Canada: 23,000 indigenous veterans. I'm glad to know that Stats Canada is doing this work, but we need to know what Veterans Affairs is doing about this. With 23,000 indigenous veterans identified, what is the wait time?

[Paul Ledwell]

We can't give you the specific answer on the wait time with respect to indigenous veterans. We're very respectful of the fact that indigenous veterans come forward, that indigenous Canadians come forward and self-identify. This data that we have received through the census has only been received by us in the last two months. As a matter—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you for that. That's all, as I just have limited time here.

I want to focus on how we can actually make this better. This is an obvious gap and you agree, Deputy Minister, about that gap. It's shocking to me that the Auditor General's office hasn't included this. This is a tool of the government for Canadians to actually make this happen. It's something that you've known about for years.

In my own correspondence in my former life, we informed Veterans Affairs of this lack of data collection for a very long time. The Auditor General's office is supposed to ensure that this happens, that folks don't fall through the cracks. It has happened numerous times, over and over. There's no indigenous perspective within the Auditor General's office, and this continues to hurt Canadians. It continues to hurt our ability to have reconciliation. It's continuing to hurt our ability to actually treat indigenous veterans like they're valuable, like indigenous people are valuable, like this government cares, like the Auditor General's office care. We need to actually demonstrate those things.

Would the Auditor General or the principal like to comment on why this really critical piece of information wasn't included, and on ways that the Auditor General's office is actually going to include indigenous perspectives moving forward? This is a valuable question, I think, for indigenous people and for me, myself. I'm going to stay on this committee and you're going to get it again.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have a little time to answer, and I know you want to answer.

[Karen Hogan]

I do. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Absolutely, I believe in this case your point is taken that we didn't specifically mention indigenous peoples as a recommendation, but we looked at the application of the gender-based analysis plus process and they're really at the beginning of the “plus” side. That's why one of our recommendations was about doing that, thinking about all of the data you need to gather. You actually have to gather information on indigenous service members in order to be able to have it feed into tailoring your responses and so on.

The point of the honourable member is—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

You have to say that in your report.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. I appreciate it. You'll have another chance, Mr. Desjarlais, and I know you'll use it efficiently.

I will turn to Mr. McCauley now.

You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Ledwell, you were talking about the 80% processing goal. When was the last time Veterans Affairs achieved that goal?

[Paul Ledwell]

That's a very good question, Honourable Member. I can't give you that specifically, but I will find that and bring it back to the committee.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

That's great.

I just want to follow up on Mr. Richards' question. You mentioned productivity is up with people staying at home. I'm looking at GC InfoBase from the Treasury Board, and the increase in FTEs for the VA is up. I think it's 35% more staff than in 2017, and 30% are French, so there's that difference there. However, there are 35% more staff since 2017, and you said there was increased productivity by having them work from home. How did we end up with such a pathetic service to our veterans, then? How do you reconcile that?

[Paul Ledwell]

There are two things I would say. First of all, this staff is being productive. The increase in the total FTEs is a factor—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Let me interrupt you there. You've added over one-third staffing since 2017. You have one-third more people. You've just told us productivity is up, so perhaps that should add 40% or 50% service. How are things so bad if you've added so many bodies and productivity is up?

[Paul Ledwell]

The key part of that, as was indicated earlier, is that the intake or demand is up significantly. In a five-year period that began in 2015, the intake or demand went up by 75%.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Do you require a 1% increase in the number of bodies for every 1% increase in uptake?

[Paul Ledwell]

I don't think that's the way we would compute this. We are looking at the total equivalent that we need—not just the number but also the type of bodies we need to address these matters.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'm going to move on. I do have a question I'd like to ask. Perhaps we can come back to it.

It's obviously been a long time since you've hit the 80% goal, because you cannot even recall the last time you did. This has been an ongoing problem. You've added the bodies. Again, I'm just stunned that we are stuck with such horrible service for our veterans.

I'm looking at your departmental results for the last year. VA achieved 18% of their goals—that was for the 2021 departmental results that came out—and yet, at the same time, taxpayers paid out $1.66 million in bonuses. Ninety-eight per cent of executives, which I assume includes you, received bonuses for achieving 18% of your targets on top of these horrific service results for our veterans.

How do you justify that? Do you think that's proper?

[Paul Ledwell]

I should say, honourable member, that I'm new to this department and government, so I honestly can't—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Do you believe that your predecessors, then...? How does your department justify that, with 18%?

Let me ask you this. The departmental results for the last year have not been released yet. They have been finalized, and I know they have been submitted to Treasury Board. I know that Minister MacAuley signed off on them.

What percentage of results were achieved for last year?