Evidence of meeting #40 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was funding.
A video is available from Parliament.
1:40 p.m.
Liberal
1:40 p.m.
Liberal
Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I want to thank the deputy and the team, and also the Auditor General, for coming and talking about this very difficult topic.
We already heard the very passionate remarks by the member from the NDP. It really struck my heart. We know this has been part of the frustration that's been going on for so many years. The Auditor General just talked about two AGs before her, and it is very frustrating.
It's not the Liberal government or the Conservative government. It's becoming a habit with the ministry. How do we change this culture, starting with this committee and this meeting? That's the question I'm asking myself.
When I look at these numbers and the findings, I was looking for a key area. How important is it to have the first nation community directly engaged? It's very important to leave the management of emergency or mitigation in their jurisdiction.
Can the deputy talk a bit about that? Has that been seen as a priority in your department?
1:45 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
I appreciate that comment, because we try to strive toward consistently working with first nations in all matters relevant to them. Sometimes that's a little harder to do. Sometimes that takes more time, but it is so worth it, because in the end the outcomes are better.
On this front, as well, in the emergency management area, we actively pursue the establishment of negotiations and agreements. If a community calls us and wants to talk about emergency management, we are there. We're not ignoring and completely turning them around. We're actually reaching out to the provinces, territories, and anyone who wants to work with us on emergency management.
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON
Hold on there. There are still 112 unfunded projects. I'm very happy to hear that you are proactively reaching out to communities, but we have to do it better. We have to show more willingness to work with them.
You mentioned the province. Can you talk a little bit about the multilateral co-operation among the federal government, provincial government and first nations? Can you give us some examples from the past? Tell us—try to convince us—that things are happening and things are improving, because by the finding of the AG, I'm just not convinced that we are changing the direction.
1:45 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
Thank you so much.
When there is not a piece of paper that outlines the final agreement, ISC will still work with all the parties and provide funding to many of the jurisdictions. As I said, we're actively seeking partners, and we do find small wins. For instance, when a first nation coordinator in my home community, my friend Céline Brazeau, manages the pandemic for the community in such a way that it keeps people safe, that to me is a win. When we reach out all days and hours, 24-7, talking to every community in the Atlantic during, before and after Fiona, and we get the sharing of information, for me that's a win.
Should we do more? The answer is absolutely yes.
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON
Do you currently have any trilateral agreements signed, to your knowledge?
1:45 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
Yes, we do. As I mentioned, we have the agreement in British Columbia. It's complex, because there are many first nations in British Columbia. It took the active, driving push of the province, first nation organizations and the federal government to make that happen.
We have bilateral agreements with many provinces and territories as well—British Columbia, Alberta, Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec, Prince Edward Island, Yukon and the Northwest Territories. We need to move those and shift those more towards multilateral agreements.
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Jean Yip
Thank you.
We move now to Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné for two and a half minutes.
1:45 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Following on from my colleagues' discussions, I think we are at the point where it has been confirmed that the recommendations will be accepted. The intentions mentioned are good. That said, we need a timetable. You need to be able to tell this committee, which is made up of elected representatives of the people, that you are going to solve this problem over the next few years, and how long it will take. Will it take three years, five years or more?
How long do you think it will take to finally fund the projects that are necessary for the well-being of first nations people? Are you able to answer this question?
1:50 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
We will prepare a report for our next meeting with this committee and will keep it regularly updated.
The department does not set its own budget. Parliament does that. I would like your support to ensure more resources to first nations for emergency management going forward. If parliamentarians were to approve increased resources to the department, we would be happy to administer them.
1:50 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
I have numbers in front of me. The actual spending for Indigenous Services Canada was $16 billion for 2200-2021. The main estimates are $39.6 billion for 2022-2023. We're talking about more than double that. I think the budget looks adequate.
Can you provide us with a timeline of concrete measures?
1:50 p.m.
Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
The increase in funding also includes funds set aside to settle some significant litigation. This funding is not just for service delivery. We still need to have funding specifically related to program accountability. So our funding is not a global budget envelope with no accountability or conditions. That's what the deputy minister is saying. We need to have funding specifically dedicated to the recommendations in the report.
1:50 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
I see.
So the extra $17 billion in the main budget for 2022-2023 is for agreements. It's still $17 billion.
1:50 p.m.
Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
This includes several budget and expenditure items.
1:50 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
The budget that has been allocated to prevention projects is $12 million—
1:50 p.m.
Bloc
1:50 p.m.
Liberal
1:50 p.m.
Liberal
1:50 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I want to return to the question of accountability. I think it's an important one, and it's probably the most critical question of our time in relation to how Canadians understand settler-indigenous relations.
When Canadians come together and expect their ministry to work, they pay taxes and they do everything right, but the system keeps failing them. It's failing not just indigenous people, but all Canadians. Many of them want to be allies with indigenous peoples, but the institutions they entrust to do this are failing.
I want to know exactly how to hold your ministry accountable in the continued violence against indigenous people like we're seeing here. Is it money? Is it the minister? Is it the department?
We hear from scholars oftentimes in committee about the structures of this place and how the structures of this place are inappropriate to be dealing with indigenous people. They put the onus on indigenous people. You want partnerships, rather than accountability. You want indigenous people to be in line, in a queue, rather than directly met through their treaty and non-treaty obligations. These are real, systemic problems.
Indigenous Services Canada is an old ministry. It's one that helped to administer, back when it was amalgamated with INAC, some of the most terrible and egregious systems in this country. Are Canadians expected to trust this system to deliver these results? No. They shouldn't have to be. That's why they should be listening to how we, as a government, can create structures that can be more accountable.
I am determined now. The fact is that we're going to continue to see, after many audits and three auditors general, the continued failures at ISC. I believe that there is a situation. It's not necessarily the people operating the system, but the system itself is broken. No matter who leads the department, it will continue to have these results.
My question is simple, and I'll return to it again. Who is responsible for these actions within the jurisdiction of the federal government, beyond platitudes of partnerships?
I want to know who is responsible.
1:50 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
You asked before who is responsible and I was going to continue with a response that I now have the chance to give. I thank you for that, because I want to say again—and I know you don't want to hear it—we are all responsible to an extent.
It is money, but it's not only money. I would say that if you, as a committee, want to hold us accountable, ask us to come back and provide you with a comprehensive action plan. Ask us to come back and demonstrate to you—
1:50 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Can you provide that comprehensive action plan in writing to this committee, please?
1:50 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
We are going to be doing that through—