I can't say.
Evidence of meeting #40 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was funding.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #40 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was funding.
A video is available from Parliament.
2:20 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
No, no. I'm not going to go there.
2:20 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
For the $12 million.... You're asking me—
2:20 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Your assistant deputy minister said there was $358 million in needs requested to your minister on behalf of first nations partners. You also said that first nation partnerships are really important to the ministry and that you act on behalf of those requests.
Regarding the $358 million, did you request that amount from the minister?
2:20 p.m.
Liberal
2:20 p.m.
Conservative
Gary Vidal Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I'm going to follow up and I'm going to throw my accountant's hat back on for a little while. This is kind of fun. I don't get to do this very often at INAN.
I'm going to go back to this projects thing, because I think we need to drill into that a bit further. In the report on page 9, it talks about April 2022. There was a $291-million funding gap. Ms. Gideon just talked about that number now being identified as $358 million. I think I'm comparing the numbers correctly.
According to Public Safety Canada in their 2019 “Emergency Management Strategy for Canada”, for every $1 invested in preparedness and mitigation, $6 could be saved in emergency response and recovery. I'll do some simple math on the back of a napkin. If we invested in these 112 projects, or whatever that number is up to in projects now, since April 2022, that would create $2.148 billion that would be available to invest in other areas. That could go to housing. That could go to schools. That could go to mental health. It seems like a pretty good return on investment to me.
Does that make sense? Let's get up front and get ahead of this, and keep $2 billion in the coffers to invest in other things. Does that make sense to you?
2:25 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
It makes sense, and I'm open to all suggestions around alternative modes of financing and calculations. I will reread the transcript very closely to make sure I understand the math you're putting forward, and I will discuss it with the team. At first blush, it makes a lot of sense.
2:25 p.m.
Conservative
Gary Vidal Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK
It's simply $358 million times six, based on the Auditor General's numbers in the report. I don't think that's hard. You talked about needing more resources. There's a source of resources. There's $2 billion, so let's consider that.
Deputy Minister, you talked about actively pursuing agreements with communities, or these multilateral agreements. However, the Auditor General's report says that in budget 2019, $1.4 million was directed over three years to invest in these multilateral agreements. As of April 2022, no agreements have been signed.
In your opening comments, you talked about one.... I'm sorry. I get that everybody likes to play the language games. You talked about a tripartite memorandum, but it's a memo of understanding. I've been around long enough to know that there's a difference between a memo of understanding and an agreement. I've been around northern Saskatchewan. I've been with my mayor's hat on to many memo of understanding signings.
Of that $1.4 million, $790,000 has been invested in this pursuit of agreement. What did we spend the $790,000 on if we have zero agreements today? Did we spend $790,000 on one memo of understanding?
2:25 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
Regardless of whether an agreement is put in place or not, there is active work going on to build capacity as part of those negotiations. For instance, a lot of emphasis is put on emergency management plans, just as it is on the outcome documents that are signed. However, make no mistake, we want them too, but there's also a lot of value when first nation communities are part of that planning. The process of developing them is just as important as the outcome.
2:25 p.m.
Conservative
Gary Vidal Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK
Fair enough. I totally get that.
Is there a number of agreements that we have that are really close to being signed, then? We've spent more than half our money on this project. Are we going to come back and say that we need another few million dollars? Are we close on any of them at least? We have zero signed. Are we close on any?
2:25 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
Without giving away anything on other parties in the sense of negotiations and where we're at, I know, for instance, that I'm actively involved in discussions with British Columbia and Ontario.
2:25 p.m.
Conservative
2:25 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
That says to me that we're closer, if I'm directly involved.
2:25 p.m.
Conservative
Gary Vidal Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK
Thank you.
I'm going to get one more quick question in here before the chair cuts me off.
You commented that even if there weren't agreements, we would still work with communities. Fair enough, I get that. I would suggest to you that if you're working with communities, provincial people, municipal governments, first nations and the federal government and you don't have an agreement in place then I think we're reactive and not proactive. I think we're going to be very slow to react to an emergency if we have to start pulling that together all of a sudden. I would argue that's a much slower way to get the work done.
Please prove me wrong. Do you have a response that would prove me wrong?
2:25 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
I want to be very clear, if I have time, on this point.
2:25 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
Regardless of an agreement being put in place—bilateral, multilateral or first nation—all first nation communities have been receiving and will continue to receive the help they need to protect their people and infrastructure during an emergency. Provinces and territories continue to protect all citizens in their areas.
I wanted to make sure that was very clear. Not having an agreement in place does not mean that the services are not there, particularly for response.
2:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Jean Yip
Thank you, Ms. Wilson.
We'll move to Ms. Bradford, for five minutes.
2:25 p.m.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
It's been a very impassioned session this afternoon. I think it's because we all realize the seriousness of the situation and we're frustrated with the chronic lack of progress. I think all of us around the table—all parties and those of us virtually—really want to see substantial progress made. It's because we care so much about this community.
I'm looking again at the Kashechewan situation. I want to follow along Mr. Kram's line of questioning.
This poor community has gone through evacuations. Some have been precautionary and some have been after they've been flooded over and over agin. We can only imagine how disruptive that is. Now you have this situation in which you temporarily move them to higher ground, onto their traditional lands. We know the definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
Why is this only temporary? Is there any consultation with the community to see if they would like to be permanently relocated on their traditional lands that are at higher elevation? Then they could maybe get through a year without being disrupted and uprooted.