Evidence of meeting #40 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was funding.
A video is available from Parliament.
2:40 p.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
That is good to hear.
It's time to move over now to Mr. Desjarlais.
Thank you very much.
2:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Jean Yip
You have two minutes and 35 seconds, and then we'll add on your two and a half.
2:40 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Okay, that's perfect. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Mrs. Shanahan, for allowing me some additional time.
I want to thank all the members of the committee for what I think are very excellent questions. I think this is the kind of allyship that many people expect across the country for what I think is really important work, so thank you for that.
I want to pick up from the deputy minister's last comment, which I sympathize with. If we had infinite resources in this country, it would be my hope that we would address these issues. The issue is that we do, in fact, have enough resources, but we may not have the political will. That's the tough part I can't grapple with.
You mentioned time, so with the existing first nation infrastructure fund's annual budget, which is $12 million, given the existing number of projects that are currently being asked of the department to fund, it would take approximately 24 years for the department to fund all of the existing projects you've reviewed. Those are just existing projects, not even accounting for the ones that are not even reviewed yet, which, in my province of Alberta, unfortunately, account for the highest number.
We point to a figure in exhibit 8.4. Alberta first nations have been getting projects submitted to the ministry for years and years, and they are not even being reviewed, not even being touched. It says that these are unreviewed applications and proposals under the fund. If we accounted for any of the unreviewed ones, we'd be seeing a wait time of 30 years. Under the existing funding formula of the first nation infrastructure program, it would take over a quarter of a century to just make sure that the existing projects that are being requested and reviewed would be funded. This is simply unacceptable, 25 years from now. We're talking near 2050, when we would hopefully see more work towards climate adaptation.
Unfortunately, we see that this is not the kind of fund that is equipped to deal with the emergencies that are facing first nations, certainly not in my province, where more than half of the applications go unreviewed every single day, and there seems to be a continued failure to make sure that there's a comprehensive plan, as my colleague Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné mentioned. It's imperative that we have full measurables.
I would also like to ask more specifically about the fund itself. When this fund and your work to advocate—let's call it—with the minister.... It's important for members of Parliament, like the members who are assembled today, to know that, when a ministry requests funding, parliamentarians know about it so that we can ensure that you get that funding. Having the minister and solely the minister responsible for declining the applications is simply unacceptable in Canada.
To the Auditor General's point of accountability, this is a tool that this committee needs. I think we got that today. I was very pleased to hear the deputy minister make mention of the fact that she had advocated for, at the very least, $358 million of the existing first nation proposals, which one of our colleagues mentioned, with the minister directly. We know that fact, and that's an important fact for parliamentarians to recognize: that on the record the deputy minister has, in fact, stated that she asked the minister for $358 million to ensure that these projects are fully funded, excluding the ones that are unreviewed.
Should we see accountability from this? I really do need to ask this question. Will that be enough to ensure that the existing projects are funded, as well as the projects that are still awaiting review? Is it sufficient for that?
2:45 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
I want to contextualize my answer by indicating that the first nation infrastructure fund, the capital facilities management program we have, funds infrastructure broadly for housing, school renos, water treatment plants, structural mitigation projects—
2:45 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
—dikes, roads, bridges, etc.
What we need to do as part of our program and part of our operations is to work with first nation communities at the regional level or at the local level in order to make priority decisions of allocations for their communities.
Sometimes there aren't enough resources, I would say, to fund all of those projects at this point in time. If parliamentarians were going to allocate those resources to us, we would definitely be able to fund more projects.
2:45 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
What's that number? How much money do you need from parliamentarians? You mentioned that you need money from the parliamentarians. How much can we give you?
2:45 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
This will come through the regular process of appropriating dollars to us, and I'm given a time limit here to answer, so I can't—
2:45 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
I can't come to you with a proposal, sir. I need to be able to go through the regular process—
2:45 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Is it at least more than $12 million? That's what you have now.
2:45 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
The amount of overall infrastructure dollars we would be seeking is definitely more than $12 million.
2:45 p.m.
NDP
2:45 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Thank you very much for that response, and thank you to my colleagues.
2:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Jean Yip
Now we move to Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné, please, for two and a half minutes.
2:45 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I have a very direct question for the Auditor General.
How many people are concerned, in total, by the 112 projects on hold?
2:50 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
I apologize, but I don't have all these details. I can't estimate the number of people involved.
2:50 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
When you did your audit, was this information available?
2:50 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
No, it wasn't. So we did not include it.
2:50 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
You are saying that Indigenous Services Canada did not have information on how many people a project is helping. It was not clearly stated.
2:50 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
My colleague who has worked on this confirms that it was not.
2:50 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Is not knowing how many people are affected by a project not a problem?