Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 25th, 2022

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

All right.

When you talk about collaboration, if I understand correctly, it is in cases of emergency, but we know that these emergencies will increase. So I will repeat my first question.

Given that these emergencies are going to increase, isn't it time to finally sign agreements with all the provinces to work on prevention rather than reaction?

[Valerie Gideon]

We agree with you, and we also prioritize agreements with our first nations partners, not just the provinces and territories.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

We agree with you in terms of first nations partners. The mentality that comes to us from British colonization is finally changing.

First nations obviously need to be consulted, but they should be more than consulted; there should be investment in building their capacity. This was raised by the Auditor General. They need to be able to establish their needs, but also be trained.

Has this been done?

[Valerie Gideon]

We have a budget allocation to increase the capacity of communities in this regard, but it is relatively modest. However, that funding has allowed us to fund emergency management coordinators in first nations communities and agencies across the country. There are currently 196, but we hope there will be more.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I think my time is up.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Thank you.

We now move to Mr. Desjarlais for six minutes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. You're doing a great job.

I want to start by recognizing how tremendously difficult this is for me and for many members across Canada as they continue to witness increases in very violent storms, wildfires and floods.

When I was first elected, it was on the premise that I would be able to do less harm in this place and that indigenous people's contribution in this place could in fact help to reduce harm in our communities.

The fact that this report echoes failures over decades is something I'm ashamed of. It's something that all Canadians are feeling ashamed of right now, too. It's deplorable to know that in our country this is the reality still facing indigenous people right now.

I had an unfortunate time responding to an emergency disaster in northwest Alberta in 2019. It was the Chuckegg wildfires. We saw the provincial government try their best to react. We saw indigenous communities try their best to react. We lost 16 homes, and the indigenous community had to take that cost. Canada still, to date, has contributed nothing.

I want to get to the bottom of who is responsible. I echo the Auditor General's comments in asking for accountability. This is deplorable. I'm outraged. If it wasn't Friday, I'd probably have more energy to yell about this.

There are no words I can use to express the difficulty that the indigenous people I met with experienced during these wildfires and floods. I can't reproduce the words in any way, shape or form. I can only plead with the deputy minister that she take her responsibility more seriously. Know that we cannot see another report like this in a decade. It's unacceptable that the public service has known about these failures for decades, and, as Mr. McCauley mentioned, they sit on shelves. Indigenous people are told, “We accept these, and we're going to be partners.”

I had the deputy minister here about a year ago talking about clean water issues, which are still prevalent. They were supposed to be done years ago. She's no longer the deputy minister; I recognize that. You're now the deputy minister.

There are real costs to inaction. Real people are going to be hurt without your doing this.

I need the deputy minister to be as forthcoming and honest with Canadians as possible so that we know as parliamentarians, as duly elected members of this country, how to fix this. Shielding and defending the government right now is not going to work. We cannot, in this committee, tolerate continued defence of a government that will not act on this.

Madam Chair, I'm sorry about how angry I am about this. I know you understand as well. You've been in this committee long enough to know how deeply disturbing this is. I need to know who's at fault. I need to know whom to hold accountable. If it's not the deputy minister, then you need to tell us who. We need answers, and we've been waiting for two decades. Who is responsible for these failures?

Canadians are losing faith in the system. I don't have faith in Indigenous Services Canada. Canadians don't have faith in Indigenous Services Canada. The only one who seems to have faith in Indigenous Services Canada isn't even the Auditor General or members of Indigenous Services, from your statement this morning.

I need to know where the problems are so we can fix this.

First of all, we need to have a system that is accountable. I need to understand what accountability measures are also important in this discussion. Who is accountable to the deputy minister? Who is at fault for the continued failure noted in this audit? Why is it that indigenous communities continue to face the same failures in their community? Who is responsible?

[Gina Wilson]

I believe that's a question for me, Madam Chair.

Before I get into that, I want to ask for clarification—maybe off-line—with respect to which community you're referring to about non-reimbursement. I'm happy to follow up on that.

I completely agree with you that, as indigenous peoples working around this table, we are here to reduce harm to indigenous peoples. I believe we're all committed to that.

You want me to be very honest and very clear about where the responsibility lies. I would say it is with all of us. I say that only with great respect, but the department does not—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I don't know if I can take that as an answer. We need to actually have action items here on this, and—

[Gina Wilson]

The department—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I've spoken to the deputy minister in the past, and she gave me the same response you're giving me now, that it's all of us. It's about partnership with indigenous people. Indigenous people need to be the ones to have the onus on them. It's indigenous people who need to come to the government. It's someone other than me.

Someone has to take accountability for this. I'm tired of coming here and asking the same question. It's like I'm talking to a wall or a room of nothing. Who is responsible?

I know the Auditor General made comments to us—which I can't directly cite in this meeting—along the lines of the involvement of politics in the system. I know from working in governments in the past, and on behalf of indigenous treaty governments as well, that the political short-sightedness of the government comes at the cost of the long-term stability of first nations. That is an issue, and it's something that Indigenous Services Canada and Crown-Indigenous Relations have never ever mentioned.

Although we know that this is the issue, we need the deputy ministers to act on behalf of Canadians and to demonstrate where the accountability is going wrong. We need to have tangible, concrete answers. Who is responsible? Is it the minister, yes or no?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Mr. Desjarlais, you'll have to hear the answer in the next round.

Thank you.

[Gina Wilson]

Thank you. I'll continue with my response. I was going to say that a lot of this—

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Ms. Wilson, we'll hear the answer in the next round.

We will now begin the second round of five minutes, starting with Mr. Vidal.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the committee for having me here.

Thank you to our guests for being here.

The colleagues previously, starting with Mr. McCauley and going all through my colleagues here, have made very clear the frustration and the concern at the table.

I'm going to start with the Auditor General.

In your report and in your opening comments, you talked about being frustrated that it's almost a decade later and we go on. This discussion is obvious. I would like to frame this in the context that this frustration should go way beyond the Ottawa bubble, beyond the people sitting at this table. For me, somebody who represents a riding in northern Saskatchewan that is home to the second-largest population of indigenous people in our country, this is very personal. Frankly, this is not about the frustration in the Ottawa bubble; it's about the frustration of people in these communities whose lives are being affected. Their quality of life is being affected. It's not just in northern Saskatchewan; it's across this country.

With that context, I have a couple of questions. Rather than beating the dead horse that's been talked about, I want to come at it with a different approach.

Auditor General Hogan, you very clearly said that the time has come for concrete action. Out of your recommendations, what's the one concrete action that you would suggest would have the biggest impact on preventing us from being here again in 10 years?

[Karen Hogan]

If I could figure out a way to package all seven in one concrete action, I would do that for you, but I can't.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

I'm giving you only one.

[Karen Hogan]

I honestly think it needs to start with an acknowledgement that it's time for all levels of government to invest in preparedness, the things that we just don't see. It needs to be done. For that to be done properly, Indigenous Services Canada needs to have a handle on the magnitude.

We talk about identifying the communities most at risk—some that historically may have experienced natural disasters more often. You also need to understand the magnitude, so every community needs to be included and considered. Until you have the lay of the land to know how much funding might be needed and how much capacity might be needed, you won't know how much you need to invest in that preparedness—

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

I'm sorry. I don't mean to be rude and cut you off, but I'm given me a limited amount of time.

Thank you for that.

That all goes around this lack of a risk-based approach to this, and all the way through to the proposal-based approach. It's such a flawed model of how we do this.

It seems to me—and this is more of a statement than a question—that the people who are accessing the funding to solve their issues, from a mitigation perspective, are the people who best play the bureaucratic game and find their way through this proposal-based system. If we're not out doing the actual risk-based assessment to find the areas we need to invest in, to be proactive and preventative, we're going to keep coming back to this spot.

I'm going to move on, because I know I'm limited in time.

Last week in the House of Commons, the minister, in responding to your report, and in an answer to a question from my colleague, said:

In fact, the Auditor General's report noted that, while Indigenous Services Canada is doing a great job helping emergency management of those crises, we need to invest more in protection and in adaptation.

I have two quick questions on that.

One, I've scoured the report. I didn't find anywhere in there where you state that Indigenous Services Canada is doing a great job. I did some word searches, and I did some digging. Is there somewhere another report, an appendix or something, that these people get that we don't get? Do you agree they're doing a great job here somewhere that I missed?

[Karen Hogan]

This the only report we have out there, so it's not like you've missed it.

What we found about the response to emergencies.... I agree it is responding to emergencies and helping communities recover from that, but—

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

In fairness, when I look at the responses in the report—and I'm not sure this is a real word, but it's bureaucratese—it's like fluffy stuff saying, “We're going to do this, we're going to support this, and we're going to engage in this”, but there's nothing concrete. There's nothing saying, “We're going to go and do this thing that will make a difference on the ground next week.”

[Karen Hogan]

This is exactly why, in my opening remarks, I said no combination of strong words or soft words is driving change. Concrete actions are needed now. I do encourage the department to come up with a more comprehensive action plan that's more fulsome, so action can be taken. Who needs to do what and by when needs to be really clear for action to happen.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Those sound like measurable outcomes to me.

In your report, on page 19, you state:

Spending is not a good measure because it does not mean that results are being achieved. Without better performance indicators, the department could not assess progress in achieving the Sustainable Development Goals.

This wasn't specific to sustainable development and some targets there, but that flows across the spectrum. There's this old saying that goes, “What gets measured gets done.” If we have a target and we're aiming for something, at least we know what we're achieving. Would you agree?

[Karen Hogan]

Absolutely. I find that I have that comment often. Government is excellent at measuring outputs, but not at measuring outcomes, and that needs to be fixed.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you.