Public Accounts Committee on Dec. 6th, 2022

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In light of what my colleague on the Liberal side seems intent on doing, it seems appropriate that I use the opportunity I have, on the floor, to move a different motion: That the committee report to the House that it calls on the government to fully accept the recommendations of the Auditor General's report 10.

I have now moved the motion, and I can provide some explanation for moving that motion.

Thank you very much, Auditor General. I know you have until 4:30. We've appreciated this opportunity to pose questions to you.

This motion recognizes the work done by the Auditor General and the fact that the Auditor General is recommending the government do the post-payment work it said it would do, in order to find out where the money went. It doesn't compel the government to insist on recovery, in every case. However, the recommendation of the Auditor General is that the follow-up work be done.

It is generally standard for the government to accept the recommendations of the Auditor General. However, in this case the government has attacked the independence of the Auditor General and certainly not accepted her recommendations. Therefore, I think it's important for this committee, which relies on the work of the Auditor General, to speak in support of the Auditor General's independence and work. That's why I proposed this motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'll hear debate on this in a second.

First, I'd like to thank Ms. Hogan and Mr. Hayes.

Of course, you're welcome to remain here, if you like, but you're under no obligation, of course. You indicated beforehand that you had to leave at 4:30. Thank you, again. We will, I think, see you on Friday. We're seeing someone on Friday.

[Karen Hogan]

You'll see someone on Friday.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

We'll see someone on Friday. That's good.

Thank you, again, for today.

[Karen Hogan]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Can I look for discussion on Mr. Genuis's motion?

Mr. Dong, is your hand up?

Is that okay, Mr. Fragiskatos? I'm sorry. He just caught my eye first.

Mr. Dong, go ahead, and then I'll begin the speaking note here.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I respect the intent of my opposition colleague's motion, but I also want to point out to the committee that we are waiting to hear from the CRA. I think it's fair to give them a chance to tell their side of the story and why they agree or disagree with the report. I think it's good to hear from the CRA before we decide whether or not to pass, vote for or disagree with this motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Fragiskatos.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

It's the same point, Mr. Chair.

We've seen the report. Important points have obviously been raised, but we've also seen that the CRA disagrees with some of the things put forward.

I have a very difficult time with this committee. I speak for myself, but I believe the general consensus is that as a committee, if we speak, we should speak after hearing all parties put their view on the record. We've heard only from the Auditor General. The CRA will be called in to give its perspective. I think we should certainly wait for that. That's a reasonable approach to take.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Go ahead, Mr. McCauley.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thanks. I appreciate the comments made.

I think, if that were the case, we wouldn't have heard such a virulent attack on the Office of the Auditor General by the minister. If it was an issue of, “We should wait and hear,” then perhaps the minister shouldn't have already prejudged without hearing the full story, either.

I fully support this motion. I think it's important to gain firm support for the report and, frankly, to support the taxpayers as well.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mrs. Shanahan.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Mr. Chair, this motion is trying to do a couple of different things.

I, for one, would like to see the text of the motion in both languages, as is normal. I feel as if, on one hand, it's trying to compel the government to do something and, on the other hand, it's trying to say what I believe every member of this committee believes and knows to be true: The work of the Auditor General is, without question, professional. The integrity of the Office of the Auditor General is not coming into question, whatsoever.

I would like to see the motion in writing. Then, I ask for some time out, or indeed—as we are scheduled to do—to go into subcommittee now, if that's where we need to go, to discuss this issue.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

The clerk is going to send around the motion, which is translated.

We can't move into the subcommittee. We're dealing with a motion on the floor right now. The subcommittee wouldn't be appropriate for this motion anyway, because the subcommittee is just a truncated version of this committee and doesn't have the ability to decide such matters.

I'll turn to Ms. Yip first. In the meantime, the clerk is sending the motion around.

Go ahead, Ms. Yip.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Could we have just a brief recess?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I would need unanimous consent for a recess. I'm happy to hear—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I don't know why we need a recess, and I don't know why we have members coming around the table to whisper to others. I mean, that's the purpose of debate, isn't it?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

The members are free to canvass one another. I'm not going to put a stop to that, of course. I would just ask that it be done in a way that does not interrupt the committee.

Mr. Genuis, would you like the floor?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Yes.

The arguments of the CRA are included, as are the arguments of the Auditor General. I think it's pretty clear-cut that we need clarity on showing support for the Auditor General's recommendations. Again, it's generally standard that we support the recommendations of the Auditor General. The government has not offered that support and has now questioned the independence of the Auditor General. I think the least we can do is simply say that we accept the Auditor General's recommendations.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

The clerk has sent that around.

Mr. Fragiskatos, you have the floor, sir.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Can we take a two- or three-minute break, as I think Ms. Yip has suggested?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm going to check on whether we need unanimous consent to take a pause.

Why would you like this meeting suspended?

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I think there's further discussion to be had.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I will suspend, then, for two minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

We will resume the committee business, please.

I'm looking for a speaker, or I'm going to call the question.

I think the debate has collapsed, so I'm going to call the question—