Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 10th, 2022

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Thank you. That is so noted.

We move now, for the next six minutes, to Ms. Shanahan.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I would like to thank all the witnesses here with us this morning for all the work they have done since the start of the pandemic. Of course, they were doing the work beforehand, as we will discuss. However, during the pandemic, their teams did remarkable work to help us through the crisis and to move forward together.

My first question is for Dr. Kochhar, from the Public Health Agency of Canada.

We went through a public health crisis before, 20 years ago: the SARS crisis. We had commissions, reports, studies, analyses and recommendations. So I would like to know why we were not better prepared, at least in terms of basic equipment, especially given the internal audits that were conducted in 2010 and 2013, as my colleague Mr. Lawrence mentioned. I know that my Conservative party colleagues are also concerned about public health.

Why were we not better prepared?

[Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar]

I'd start by saying that a global pandemic on the scale of COVID-19 has not been seen in 100 years. We have many lessons for everyone in Canada and around the world from this pandemic. These lessons learned actually help us at the Government of Canada, in collaboration with provinces and territories, to adjust the approach.

We were very much in the realm of creating the national emergency stockpile, which was not equivalent to the scale of the pandemic we saw starting in 2020. We had done our assessment of what the national emergency stockpile policy was, as part of the optimization plan we were working on. We also were working with provinces and territories to look at the responsibility for information sharing for the details of things we were also putting together.

However, given the massive scale of pandemic, which actually took the whole world by surprise, the size of the strategic stockpile, which is supposed to be a backstop for the provinces' and territories' own stockpiles, was rather insufficient at the beginning. However, we pivoted immediately, with the help of our colleagues in the federal departments as well as provinces and territories and as was noted in the Auditor General's report, to quickly analyze the situation, procure and distribute very quickly so that we could actually support our frontline workers. As we have gone forward, we have further sharpened our policies and we have continued to work at pulling together the information that gives us a line of sight into future supply and demand. That will allow us to be better prepared should this kind of emergency ever present itself again.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Just on that note, Doctor, you mentioned in your opening remarks some rather large numbers of the number of units that you have of N95 masks and so on. Can you provide to this committee the metrics around how you decide how much is enough? I have no idea how that would be determined. What is enough and what does that look like? Is it the provinces that give you their requests and you stockpile accordingly or vice versa? Could you provide that to the committee?

I'm just disturbed about any implication that there were employees who were deliberately negligent in their duties, and I do not believe that's the case. What I do know is that there were significant cuts to your agency as well as other departments in 2014 and 2015, and that may be part of the answer, but I know we're not here to talk about resources: You're supposed to make do with whatever you have.

I'm going to direct my other questions to the deputy auditor general regarding the public procurement. Opposition members have expressed that they do not agree with some of the actions taken to procure PPE and medical equipment quickly during the pandemic, but in your report, you mention that you feel that PSPC mobilized and adapted quickly. Can you tell us, in your opinion, what the consequences might have been if we had not taken decisive action early on to procure some of these medical devices and equipment?

[Andrew Hayes]

As we mentioned in the report, there was a dynamic market. There were supply/demand challenges across the world.

We do appreciate the fact that the department had to act quickly. We identified some areas for improvement. In particular, we mentioned the controls that could be put in place and implemented around advance payments and also doing integrity checks for suppliers, but overall we recognized the important adaptation that the department did to procure the equipment needed by Canadians.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Thank you.

We will now move on to Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

My thanks to all the witnesses who are joining us here today.

Before I ask my question, I must make a brief comment. I do so with all respect for my distinguished Liberal party colleague. I disagree with his statements on decorum. In my opinion, members of the committee have a duty to obtain clear and precise answers. We represent the people of Quebec or Canada. Members of the committee must obtain clear and precise answers from the witnesses.

With that said, here is my first question.

In its 2010 and 2013 reports, the Office of the Auditor General of Canada already reported shortcomings in terms of the procurement and the governance within certain government entities.

My question is for the officials from the Auditor General's office.

Why had that advice and those recommendations still not been implemented when the pandemic began in 2020?

[Andrew Hayes]

Thank you for the question.

I should clarify that those audit reports are internal to the Public Health Agency of Canada.

But your question was about the shortcomings that had been known for a long time. These are concerns for our office. Agencies and departments must take action as a result of the recommendations and observations from our office.

I hope that the President of the Public Health Agency of Canada also has an answer.

[Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar]

Madam Chair, would you like me to respond?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné, I believe you were muted.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Dr. Kochhar, I would indeed like to hear your answer to that question.

[Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar]

I already alluded to the fact that of course these were internal evaluations and audits for the management of a national emergency strategic stockpile. We very much took those evaluations and developed a policy frame and then an optimization plan for the NESS. It outlined the mandate of the NESS and prioritization of product category. There was follow-up on that.

In response to that, we also created the ability for us to work with PTs and develop MOU templates on the responsibilities of information sharing. As pointed out by the Office of the Auditor General's 2020 report, we are now pivoting to the comprehensive management plan.

Of course, work is continuing. As I mentioned earlier, this is really to have a comprehensive management plan with associated performance measures and targets for NESS within one year of seeing the end of the pandemic. We have to work closely with PTs, which we are very committed to doing, and with other key partners to better define these roles and responsibilities. We continue to do that. This has been an iterative process.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you very much, Dr. Kochhar.

Do you feel that your plan, which was iterative in its design, should be actively reviewed to ensure that it is adequate? This would be in order to put this pandemic behind us, but especially to prepare for the next pandemic. I don't want to be a prophet of doom, but we may well have other pandemics in the future.

Should the plan not be reviewed, audited and above all analysed, so that we make sure that we do not end up in the same situation in the future?

[Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar]

As I alluded to earlier, this is something that we are committed to developing. It includes a very comprehensive management plan with the key indicators in that. As I mentioned earlier, this work has already started. We are focusing right now, being in the middle of the pandemic, on fighting the fight with the pandemic, but we are still continuing to have those robust pieces working with our partners in the federal family, as well with the provinces and territories.

For example, what would be the allocation model should this happen? We've already established that in the current pandemic, and that would be a lesson learned in terms of how we go forward. How much do we retain for which kind of PPE? What do we do with it when there is a certain degree of triggers reached? So we will continue to do that.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you very much, Dr. Kochhar.

I understand that the process is still under way. However, do you have a timeline? Can you tell us when the plan will be finished? When can we look at it and analyze it, so that a similar situation does not happen in the future?

[Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar]

We agreed with the Auditor General's report. We mentioned in the response to that report and recommendation that within one year of the pandemic having been declared ended, we would have a complete package of a comprehensive plan. We would have ready a comprehensive management plan with explained rules and responsibilities and key parameters. That is our target with which we are moving forward.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

As I understand it, all the recommendations from the Office of the Auditor General were accepted. So, one year after the pandemic, we should be able to see that the recommendations have been put into place, should we not?

[Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar]

That is our target that we are working to. We hope to achieve that target as we continue to work and we continue to develop while we also focus on the pandemic. That is the time frame with which we are working.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

That is excellent.

Thank you very much.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Thank you.

We will move to Mr. Desjarlais for six minutes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

First, I want to begin by thanking the witnesses for their outstanding work during this very difficult time for Canadians. It's been difficult, I think, not only for our frontline health care workers, but also for folks who manage our critical supplies, including those at the national stockpile.

I do have a very important role to play on behalf of Canadians, which is to get to the root issue of accountability as to why certain deficits were present, particularly in the early part of the 2010s. I really want to get to that point. I do believe that Canadians deserve an answer as to why those deficiencies were identified and then not followed up on appropriately, in order for us to best plan for the future and have confidence in our systems moving forward. I do want to spend some portion of my limited six minutes to summarize for Canadians and for the witnesses some of the concerns that I'm most impacted by.

From report that was presented to us, I'll summarize section 10.25 onwards to section 10.32. There was a 2010 report, if I am correct, and this internal audit suggested significant findings related to the national emergency strategic stockpile. Then again in 2013, the agency conducted a follow-up internal audit and found that the federal stockpile issues raised three years previously had not been fully addressed. That's my first concern.

My second concern is this: “We found that the Public Health Agency of Canada did not fully address [those] significant findings about the National Emergency...Stockpile”. In both the 2010 and 2013 reports, they found that management committed to do so, but didn't properly follow up or address them.

Before I ask the deputy minister to respond, my final point is related to the why. Why was there such a complete breakdown of oversight and accountability for a very long period of time—in particular from 2010 to 2015—given those reports?

What caused such deficits in a system that's supposed to be proactive and prepared for emergencies?

[Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar]

Madam Chair, I'll start by saying that as we started to look at all those aspects that were captured as recommendations from the internal audit in 2011 and earlier, we continued to work to develop the national emergency strategic stockpile policy in 2012 and the NESS optimization plan in 2013. This really outlined the mandate of the NESS and the prioritization.

We actually continued to show progress, working with our partners in provinces and territories. That work has built onto having a good framework or a good baseline as to what we can now move on, in terms of the lessons learned from the current pandemic.

In response to this audit, we are really focused on building on those efforts that we had made earlier. We continue to work with PTs to make sure there's an active deployment of supplies and a life-cycle management of the commodities, as well as making sure that the NESS has maximized the effective use of that PPE within its lifespan.

Certainly we continue to work on that, Madam Chair. We strive to have a robust system that we can build in response to the recommendations from the OAG.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much for that, Doctor.

I want to supplement that question. Given that you just said there were lessons learned and that those two reports are critical to our implementation and our preparedness to date, I'm concerned that there was a lack of accountability from 2010 to 2014, given those reports.

Why was there never an internal audit from 2013 to 2020 to account for those deficits?

[Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar]

Madam Chair, generally, we have an internal process whereby we continue to follow up in terms of what the different steps are. There is an iterative process that happens inside the agency and inside the departments to follow up on the internal audit.

Certainly some improvements were made, Madam Chair, as I pointed out. They may not have fully taken care of all the recommendations or all the pieces, but we continued to work towards improvements that we could make at that particular time.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you, Dr. Kochhar.

Just to conclude this line of questioning with the time I have, it's very clear to me, especially with what you said, that this process doesn't work. The processing didn't work with the accountability mechanism for internal audits in order to bring these issues to light. They failed. You just mentioned the aspect of having to follow up on these things, and it wasn't successful.

There obviously is a need for further accountability to make this actually appropriate, wouldn't you agree?