Public Accounts Committee on May 18th, 2023

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I call this meeting to order.

Good afternoon, everyone.

Welcome to meeting number 65 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), the committee is meeting today to continue its study on Report 5, Chronic Homelessness, of the 2022 Reports 5 to 8 of the Auditor General of Canada, which were referred to the committee on November 15, 2022.

I'd now like to welcome our witnesses.

First, we have the Honourable Ahmed Hussen, Minister of Housing and Diversity and Inclusion.

Thank you for being here today, Minister, and for accepting our invitation along with your colleagues.

From the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, we have Nadine Leblanc, senior vice-president, policy. From the Office of Infrastructure of Canada, we have Kelly Gillis, deputy minister; and Kris Johnson, director general, homelessness policy directorate.

Minister, I believe you know the drill. You have five minutes for opening comments, please. The floor is yours.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, Minister of Housing and Diversity and Inclusion]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Everyone deserves a safe and affordable place to call home, but as we have seen in communities across our country, far too many Canadians face the daily unacceptable reality of experiencing homelessness. Homelessness affects every community in Canada. It is a grim reality for far too many Canadians. It preys on the most vulnerable amongst us, casting a shadow over their lives.

Homelessness ultimately has an impact on all of us. It leaves an enduring mark on all of our communities. As a government, we have recognized this and we have heeded the call to action.

The Government of Canada, recognizing the urgency of the matter, has responded through Reaching Home, Canada's homelessness strategy. Launched in 2019, the program committed $2.2 billion to address homelessness across the country. It has now grown to almost $4 billion in funding. Budgets 2021 and 2022 strengthened this initiative to further empower communities so that they can better address the needs of individuals and families experiencing homelessness.

Reaching Home is the embodiment of hope—a community-based program that empowers urban, Indigenous, rural and remote communities to help them address local homelessness needs.

The Government of Canada supports communities in establishing “coordinated access”, an integrated systems-based approach that prioritizes assistance for those in greatest need to ensure that they find suitable housing and comprehensive services.

The impact of Reaching Home is tangible. It is felt within our communities every day. In just the first three years, Reaching Home has funded over 5,000 projects across the country, helping to place more than 46,000 people experiencing homelessness in permanent housing. Moreover, over 87,000 people in need benefited from prevention and shelter diversion services through the program's support.

As part of our government's response to the COVID-19 pandemic, Reaching Home, with increased funding, created over 26,000 temporary accommodation spaces. These spaces provided crucial shelter for Canadians, offering them a lifeline during a time of social distancing. In total, more than 214,000 temporary accommodation placements were made to support individuals in need, when it was needed most.

That is the impact that Reaching Home is having across the country. It is playing a key role to support our national housing strategy's target of reducing chronic homelessness by 50% by 2027. We have committed further to ending chronic homelessness by 2030.

This is the goal that is at the heart of the national housing strategy, a bold 10-year plan backed by an $82-billion investment to ensure that more people in Canada have a safe and affordable place to call home. The national housing strategy is built on strong partnerships between the Government of Canada, provinces and territories, and on continuous engagement with partners, including municipalities, indigenous governments, the private sector and non-profit organizations.

The strategy is the largest, most ambitious federal housing program in Canada's history, and strives to create livable communities for families and individuals. It's a comprehensive approach to addressing housing needs head-on.

The NHS supports the creation of new affordable homes and purpose-built rental homes, and it preserves, repairs and revitalizes community housing while also committing funding to the needs of vulnerable populations.

To address the overrepresentation of indigenous peoples among those experiencing homelessness, Reaching Home has invested $370 million since 2019 to indigenous-led and culturally relevant programs and services. This includes funding for 37 urban, rural and remote communities under the indigenous homelessness stream. It also includes funding for distinctions-based approaches co-developed with national indigenous organizations and modern treaty holders to address the specific needs of first nations, Métis and Inuit across the country.

The success of the national housing strategy hinges upon the strength of our partnerships. It is continuously informed by extensive consultations with Canadians from all walks of life, especially those with lived experience of housing need.

The Government of Canada is investing $18.1 million over three years to conduct action research on chronic homelessness. We stand in support of participating communities in the effort to identify and document persistent barriers to preventing and reducing chronic homelessness.

In addition, we are piloting innovative potential approaches that address these barriers head-on. The research findings obtained will help us to develop strategies and identify pathways to ending chronic homelessness in communities across Canada.

Homelessness does not discriminate. It affects people from all walks of life. Whether they are seniors, youth, individuals with disabilities, veterans or families, no one should face the reality of being without a home.

According to census 2021, there were an estimated 460,000 Canadian veterans, with over 2,500 experiencing homelessness. That's why last month Infrastructure Canada and Veterans Affairs Canada jointly announced the launch of the new veteran homelessness program. This $79.1-million program is about providing veterans with rent supports, rental supplements and wraparound services that meet their particular needs. It is also about building capacity for veteran-serving organizations so that they can engage in research on veteran homelessness to deepen our understanding of this issue and improve our programs and services.

We will bring an end to chronic homelessness in Canada, Mr. Chair. It will end through programs like the national housing strategy and Reaching Home, through initiatives like the veteran homelessness program, and through dedicated service, research and support to identify and address the root causes of homelessness.

Most importantly, it will end through strong partnerships. We can't do it alone. We have to continue to work with other levels of government, indigenous organizations and communities across the country.

Together with our partners, we are improving housing outcomes and reducing homelessness for Canada's vulnerable populations.

Budget 2023 reaffirmed the Government of Canada's commitment to the things that matter most to Canadians, such as making housing more affordable, fighting climate change and creating good, well-paying jobs. Through these impactful programs and the strong partnerships that I just spoke about, we will continue to make housing more affordable and end chronic homelessness in Canada.

We are committed to addressing homelessness. Our commitment is steadfast and unwavering. Everyone deserves a place to call home and a place to feel safe and secure. Every Canadian deserves a place to build a better life.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Minister.

We'll turn now to the official opposition.

Mr. McCauley, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thank you.

Minister, thanks for joining us. Well done on your French. It's much better than mine.

I'm going to assume that you've read the Auditor General's report. I can't think of a better word than perhaps “damning”. I'm just wondering what immediate steps you're taking to address this. I'll go over some of the findings.

Infrastructure, ESDC and CMHC “did not know whether their efforts improved housing outcomes for people experiencing homelessness”. You've mentioned all this money spent, as you do in the House all the time, and the AG says the departments can't even say if you're helping anyone. The report also says, “As the lead for Reaching Home”, which you've talked a lot about here today, “the department did not know whether chronic homelessness and homelessness had increased or decreased since 2019”. It says the CMHC, “as the lead for the National Housing Strategy...did not know who was benefiting from its initiatives”.

Then we have CMHC pointing fingers, saying that it should be Infrastructure. Infrastructure is saying, well, we're not accountable; someone else is. This is an absolute mess. I appreciate the sentiment of what you're trying to say, but it doesn't match the reality. You've talked about how you've done this, this and this. We know that housing prices in Canada have doubled. Homelessness in Edmonton is through the roof, even though we have relatively stable housing prices. You've claimed that you're doing this, this and this, but the results are different. Again, the Auditor General says your departments don't know if you're actually helping anyone.

Why are we pushing out all this money and we don't even know if we're getting results? When we look at what's actually happening out in Canada, we see rising homelessness, unaffordable rent and unaffordable mortgages. I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but all it comes back to is failure. How are we going to fix this? What are we going to do to actually get results?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

I think what I get from that monologue is a conflating of a number of things. You're mixing homelessness with housing prices and—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'm sorry. Are you saying high housing prices aren't linked to homelessness? That's news to me, but please go ahead.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

No, I'm suggesting that we have different programs for different things. You're conflating what the Auditor General actually said with everything else that we do.

I want to provide a few numbers to you so that you can have a better sense of the actual impact that these programs have. I think the concern of the Auditor—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

We're short on time. Can you just provide them to us in writing?

I guess what we're looking for is accountability and concrete results—

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

I thought you wanted answers to your questions.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Maybe you can just provide them in writing.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

If you want a monologue, I can just stay out of it.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'm not asking for that. I'm just asking that you table them, because we're short on time.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

For you to ask a question, you have to listen to the answer.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

We're looking for results. The AG was very clear. Your departments are with you today. You've spent all this money, but you don't know what results you're getting, yet—

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

I'm actually trying to give you the results, but you won't let me.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

—anecdotally, we see that homelessness is through the roof.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

You won't let me give you the results. These are results: 87,000 people were prevented from entering homelessness because of our investments. These are results: 46,000 people who were already experiencing homelessness were provided with permanent housing solutions through Reaching Home.

These are results. I think what you're confusing it with—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

How are you measuring 46,000 when the Auditor General says your departments are not able to—

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

I'm trying to answer, but you won't let me.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

But you're not answering—

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

I guess you want a monologue for your clip, so go ahead. No problem.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Just one second, Mr. McCauley.

Ms. Yip, you have a point of order.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Yes. If we could have the minister be able to finish his answer—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Well, there was fair bit of interruption on both sides.

I'll turn things back over to Mr. McCauley.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

I didn't interrupt the honourable member, Mr. Chair, but—