Public Accounts Committee on June 8th, 2023

[Edward Johnson]

I certainly had no knowledge at the time. I wasn't aware of the donation. I first learned about it a couple of years after it had been made.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I would hope, sir, that these people are fired. This is a serious matter. It complicates the foundation and potentially exposes the foundation to legal risks with the Canada Revenue Agency.

Do you see that potential, sir?

[Edward Johnson]

I'm not convinced by some of these assertions and allegations. With great respect, I have my doubts about.... I have looked at the 160 pages of information relating to it, which I believe was every document that the foundation had, which was provided some years ago and—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Pascale Fournier—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Brock, your time is up. I allowed Mr. Johnson to answer the question.

We'll turn now to Mr. Fragiskatos.

You have the floor for five minutes.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I'll split my time with Ms. Shanahan, and I'll turn it to her first.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much.

I'm very interested in this question you asked of the Auditor General to come to audit the foundation, which strikes me as the action of a chair and a foundation that have nothing to hide. Of course, it's not in the scope of her work.

[Edward Johnson]

As it turns out.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Does the foundation have auditors?

[Edward Johnson]

Yes.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

You have outside auditors. Has that always been the case?

[Edward Johnson]

Yes, it has been.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Indeed, I would think it has, with $145 million under administration.

Has it ever been the case that the auditors have come back with a less-than-clean audit of the foundation's financials?

[Edward Johnson]

Never. We've had a clean opinion every year.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Were any red flags ever raised concerning donations—domestic, foreign or otherwise?

[Edward Johnson]

No, not to my knowledge, and I was chair of the committee for a number of years and on it before that. I recall no such allegations or concerns with respect to any of our donations.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Johnson.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you for being here today, Mr. Johnson.

Earlier.... I don't think it was in your testimony, actually. I think it was in response to a question from Ms. Bradford, my colleague next to me. You tied the social sciences and humanities, generally, to democracy. The vision of the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation takes very seriously the idea that the humanities and social sciences, in general, are central to the maintenance of democracy.

I wonder whether you could expand on that a bit.

[Edward Johnson]

I remember reading, a number of years ago, an exchange in which somebody said, “No, we should be shifting all our attention in education, particularly in higher education, to training people. Let's get out of teaching Shakespeare and Wordsworth. Why do we need to know Roman history? It's the age of technology. That's where the future is, and it's a waste of taxpayer money to be funding universities to do that.”

Someone else wrote in to this exchange going on in the newspaper and said, “No, in a time of rapid change, you teach the things that don't change. Social sciences and humanities take us into areas where....” Of course, there are new developments and new knowledge being uncovered. However, they're the fundamentals of a democracy. They're fundamental and, as I said, the backbone of a liberal democracy—small-l liberal, I hasten to add.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Of course. That's noted.

Mr. Johnson, the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation has funded the research of students focused on a number of different subjects, obviously. It has done so for a number of years. Those students currently receiving support and, certainly, who have benefited from support, I'm sure, look at this situation with great regret, if not worry.

I have to ask you this: Where is the direction of the foundation going? This issue has become politicized from start to finish. What is the future of the foundation now?

[Edward Johnson]

I was at pains to say, in my opening remarks, that the future is solid. We have a bright future ahead of us. We hope very soon to be announcing our next cohort of scholars, mentors and fellows. If you want evidence of the solidity of the foundation and its programs, I think that will be it.

On top of that, as I think our current scholars would attest, we are continuing to work ahead on the various elements of our leadership program so that events are taking place over the course of the summer. For example, there are a number of gatherings of scholars, fellows and mentors in various places around the country, but also internationally. Our value-added program in, as I like to call it, “engaged learning” is going strong, so I hope scholars will take heart.

Thank you for the question.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

That's my time.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

We're going to get through the third and final round.

Mr. Johnson, how are you doing? Do you need a little break, or are you good?

[Edward Johnson]

I'm okay, thanks. I'm hanging in there.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Okay. We'll keep going. We'll have you out of here in about 25 minutes, then.

We're turning now to Mr. McCauley.

You have the floor for five minutes.