Evidence of meeting #69 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was foundation.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:25 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
No, what I said was that the receipt was issued in the name of a Canadian corporation. As I explained in my hypothetical example, if I give $100 to the Canadian Red Cross…
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
There's no need for you to repeat it. My speaking time is very limited.
The information is still contradictory. Even though the company has a subsidiary in Canada, the receipt for the gift was actually sent to China.
I'd like to ask you a question about the potential conflict of interest you mentioned in your opening address. You said that you had never received a legal opinion, but did you ever receive an informal conflict of interest opinion?
4:25 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
If you mean an informal opinion from a lawyer, the answer is no.
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Did you receive an informal opinion from the foundation's management, for example?
4:25 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
No, I did not receive an opinion from the management or staff. However, I held discussions with at least one director, perhaps more, on the possibility that one of us might be in a conflict of interest position, or at least be perceived to be so.
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Ms. Dyane Adam, who testified before the standing committee on access to information, privacy and ethics, mentioned several times at various meetings that there was a potential issue about you and others being in a conflict of interest because you were sitting on the audit committee when the foundation received the gift.
Why do you think you weren't in a conflict of interest? It's only common sense, because you were on the audit committee at the time.
4:25 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
I don't see why that's inherently a conflict of interest.
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
When members of management suggested that you were in a conflict of interest position, did you perhaps think it might be a good idea to resign?
4:25 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
I seriously considered it, but disagreed with them. For 33 years, I was the secretary and legal counsel for a major Quebec-based Canadian public corporation. My view was that I was not in a conflict of interest position, and certainly not in a legal conflict.
However, as I said in my opening address, it was nevertheless important for me not to be involved in an inquiry into the circumstances surrounding the acceptance of these gifts, because I was on the legal side…
4:30 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
And yet the perception of a conflict of interest is often more harmful than the conflict itself.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much, Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné.
Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
4:30 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Johnson, I'd like to continue on the important aspect of trying to find a way to see that this information you're sharing with us, the information that is shared by my Conservative colleagues and the information shared by even the Liberal colleagues and the Bloc.... You can see you're being asked questions from may different angles. Some questions are friendlier than others.
I'm most interested in trying to find a way, just like you in some ways, to have an independent but public inquiry because of this divergence of political opinion. I understand from your testimony today that you're opposed to a public inquiry.
Can you explain, given—
4:30 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
What do you mean by a public inquiry?
4:30 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
I mean a public inquiry in the sense that there would be officials that would be independent—
4:30 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
From government...?
4:30 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Independent, but not in the sense that David Johnston was, for example. That is a question of perception. It was that he wasn't independent.
I'm saying that I want a public inquiry. Canadians would like a public inquiry where there isn't even a perceived conflict.
4:30 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
So do I.
4:30 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
I'm not talking about a legal conflict. I heard you make mention of that. As you know, especially in the legal profession, perceived conflicts are almost just as dangerous in particular when we're thinking of something so important, like Canadian democracy. We often don't have to think about it in a country like Canada. We often believe it's very secure.
In this case, Canadians are nervous. You made mention in your own comments to Mrs. Shanahan in questions about China, saying, “There's a serious threat there that must be” taken care of.
How does one take care of that when we don't have the co-operation, I'd say, of civil society to look at...? Even if they are not guilty—which is not what I'm saying— it's important to have an independent public process that isn't an appointment by the Prime Minister, for example.
4:30 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
One that is appointed by Parliament, do you mean?
4:30 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
I don't mean appointed by Parliament either. I'm speaking more specifically of a public inquiry, which is more similar to the public inquiries we've had in Canada in the past, which look at experts, maybe even a judge that could do some of this work.
I need to understand what you believe is in the best interests of Canadians, considering you have admitted that the Auditor General should investigate.
There's a level of perception you've understood that needed to be changed.
4:30 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
I have advocated since early March for an independent, outside review of all circumstances surrounding the receipt of this donation.
At the foundation, we have established an inquiry with two wise persons from outside the foundation with no relationship whatsoever. They have been working over the last couple of weeks at beginning to pursue an inquiry along that line. They are overseeing the work of legal counsel who are doing the legal work in connection with the review of all circumstances surrounding the two donations and receipt of those two donations.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much. That is the time.
I'm going back to Mr. Brock.
You have the floor for five minutes, sir.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Mr. Johnson, I understand that you know quite well our former governor general, Mr. David Johnston.
4:30 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
“Quite well” would be an exaggeration. I've met him a couple times. That's it.