Evidence of meeting #69 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was foundation.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:55 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
Potentially, they are huge over the long run. We can count senior public servants, senior academics, people in the academic world and people in public office, for example, who have been through our program, and I would argue, have had their horizons broadened by it. Some have told us that it was life-changing for them.
I would commend a book by one of our scholars, an indigenous gentleman named Jesse Thistle, who has written—
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much. That is the time.
Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné, The floor is yours for two and a half minutes.
4:55 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I'm returning to what I was talking about earlier.
As you know, the appearance of a conflict of interest is often more harmful than the conflict itself. Several of your colleagues testified before the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics, specifically Ms. Fournier, Ms. Adam, and Ms. Redfern, to the effect that they had told you they thought you were in a conflict of interest.
Why should your opinion, as you explained it earlier, take precedence over the opinion of these three women from the foundation?
4:55 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
It was…
I'm going to have to say this in English because my vocabulary is failing me at the moment.
As I mentioned in my opening remarks,
I didn't need that legal opinion.
I was already saying that I should not be involved, nor should President Fournier, in the oversight of any independent inquiry. That's why I proposed that we set up an independent committee of three directors who had not been involved with the foundation in any way in 2014 to 2018.
4:55 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
To your knowledge, did the foundation invest any of its funds in Chinese companies close to the Beijing government?
4:55 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
One of the directors of the foundation who appeared before the other parliamentary committee last week, Ms. Madeleine Redfern, raised that issue two years ago. At her request, we arranged a special meeting to discuss it. Unfortunately, we were unable to attend the meeting, but we did find that there had been, I believe, two such investments. According to the information I have, our investment managers have since sold these investments.
4:55 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Now, given that you are on the finance and investment committee, don't you find it odd that you should have learned about these investments only two or three weeks ago? That's the first thing. Secondly…
4:55 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
I was made aware of these Chinese investments two years ago, I believe.
4:55 p.m.
Bloc
4:55 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
No. We withdrew from these investments.
4:55 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
I can't tell you exactly when it happened.
4:55 p.m.
Bloc
4:55 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
We asked the investment managers to get rid of them. We normally don't know what's in the portfolio.
We have policies, including environmental, social and governance policies, which are based on United Nations recommendations. We inform our managers of these policies and expect investments to be consistent with them. We are satisfied with the work that was done. Every year, our managers give us presentations to confirm that investments comply with our policies.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much.
Mr. Desjarlais, we'll go over to you for two and a half minutes, please.
4:55 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Thank you very much, Chair.
Mr. Johnson, I want to follow up on what I believe is the most important role for parliamentarians at this time. I hope you can indulge me with attempting to empathize with the role that parliamentarians are in when we're seeing this tremendously concerning situation across the country that puts into doubt the credibility of our institutions. That's a real fact. Whether it's true or not, the perception is damaging.
In order for us to clear the air and in order for us to have true trust in these institutions, I believe that a public inquiry under the public inquiries act is important. It would provide for an independent commission that would have the powers that your organization—although it could establish one—wouldn't have, which are the power to subpoena, second documents and do the very things that are contemplated in the public inquiries act. It's why we have a public inquiries act.
If organizations are able to just “independently” audit themselves, the perception doesn't go away. You're going to be back here next year if that happens. Trust me. It's going to be continuous. It's just going to go on and on until we have true trust in the process.
The outcome is important, but the process is equally important as well, which is why I do appreciate your attempt to involve the Auditor General. Of course, that wasn't going to be case. She said she wasn't able to do that. I made a motion here to have the CRA do that. The reality with the CRA is that they have to undergo their own processes. It's up to them as to whether or not they audit that, but it's a recommendation I have and it's the recommendation of this committee.
A public inquiry, I think, would go a long way to restoring not only the public faith that we have in our institutions, but also even in your institution. Wouldn't you agree?
5 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
Boy, things have changed in the intervening...in the last six or seven years. There's a lot to be very concerned about with China and with other governments.
5 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
Something has to be done. There are some really important and disturbing activities that have carried on, which are now being identified, particularly in the last few years. Whether that should be studied by a public inquiry is not something for which I have an opinion. It's certainly not one that would matter.
5 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
I'm afraid that is your time, Mr. Desjarlais. I apologize about that, but I'm under the clock as well.
Mr. Kram, you have the floor for five minutes please.
June 8th, 2023 / 5 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Kram Conservative Regina—Wascana, SK
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to Mr. Johnson for being here today.
I was wondering if we could just tie up some loose ends with the time we have left.
You had indicated that you were poring through 165 pages of documents. Could you elaborate on what these 165 pages are for?
5 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
It's the 160 pages that were provided. I believe the ethics committee has them. We would be very happy to provide them to this committee, if that's requested.