Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 5th, 2023

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That is the time, Mr. Desjarlais.

Mr. Stewart, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to paint a little picture of my constituency first. If I eat up some of my own time doing that, it's okay because I'll be back up again.

I live in Miramichi. That's a beautiful salmon-fishing, more central-northern part of New Brunswick. It's a very beautiful riding.

Twenty years ago, I moved to South Korea. I spent two years working there. It always dawns on me that the Internet and mobility capability that the South Koreans had in 2003, 2004 and 2005 was actually better than what my constituents have today, 20 years later. That really pains me.

I was a provincial MLA for 11 years. A fibre optic cable runs from Newcastle to Fredericton along Route 8 in New Brunswick. That's about a two-hour drive. There are lots of people who live along Route 8. The company that owns that cable said it's not up to them to hook up the people who live there. They would often send those constituents back to me. As a provincial MLA, I always felt that we were like the last person to get invited to the dinner.

The infrastructure is private and the regulation is federal. I always felt like I was a complete disservice. It didn't seem like I could ever help my constituents. I wore it a lot. I took it home with me because I have four small children and my wife is a teacher. I'm a public figure. Internet service is so important to everyone where I live.

The interesting thing about that is that, some years later, we found out who was connected to that fibre optic cable. It was large industry. There were only a couple of them in my area—two or three at a maximum. It was the pharmacies and the Atlantic Institution.

You can imagine: An inmate in a maximum security prison in my constituency maybe only has access to Internet once a day and maybe it's not for very long, but he was getting connected to fibre optic while my constituents were having to choose between two monopolies. In the municipal regions, which are still very rural, you had the option of broadband, which was terrible compared to what the fibre optic would have been. In the rural and more remote areas of New Brunswick, you had the option of satellite Internet, which was terrible and the price just kept going up.

You can picture my neighbour, who is an 80-plus-year-old woman. She's looking out of her kitchen window directly at a fibre optic cable. It's 15 feet away from her. The company won't hook her up because they already have her business on the lower end of what they are offering. She doesn't have anything else until recently. Now there's Starlink. Thank God it exists. It actually outperformed everything we had in rural New Brunswick.

I have a couple of questions here and I don't know who should answer them. For me, the Prime Minister and the government are always accountable for everything, but lately the Prime Minister doesn't think anything is his job. Today, I'm curious about whose job it is. I want one of you to answer me and I have no favourite. Whoever thinks it's their job to answer can do so.

Whose job is it to ensure that rural Canadians have proper Internet mobility service?

[Simon Kennedy]

Mr. Chair, I'm happy to take a stab at it.

First of all, in all seriousness, I married a girl from Miramichi and spent a whole lot of time in Newcastle, so I have to be very measured in my answer here or I'm going to get into a lot of trouble.

I would say to the committee that I think a large measure of the response is the industry department's job. We administer the universal broadband fund. We have a responsibility to spend those monies with the express purpose of hooking up rural and remote regions. I don't know the specifics of the case the member has cited. What I can say, though, is that it sounds like an indicative example of why we are focusing on broadband last-mile connections to households with the universal broadband fund.

It's possible that private industry or others can put in their own fibre optic cable. They're not necessarily under any obligation to serve local households that are near the cable. With the investments we're making through the UBF, the explicit requirement, contractually, is.... We are providing that money to hook up homes.

I'm just looking at the statistics for New Brunswick, for example. While recognizing the concerns that the member has raised—I wouldn't want to invalidate them; there is work to do—we anticipate that by 2026, we'll be at almost 100% coverage of broadband in terms of households in New Brunswick. That has been a big focus of the program. We anticipate that the kinds of problems the member has raised will be solved by the investments being made. If that's not the case, we would want to know about it.

Heretofore, there was not necessarily an obligation to be connecting households. The program is designed to incentivize companies to step forward and connect households that are unconnected.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. That is the time.

We'll be back to Mr. Stewart, but we're turning now to Mrs. Shanahan.

You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I listened with great interest to the portrait that my colleague painted of his riding. I do feel sympathy, but I would like to learn more about why, for example, the Province of New Brunswick has not partnered up with the federal government to make sure that the constituents in my colleague's riding have full coverage.

[Simon Kennedy]

Mr. Chair, I want to be as helpful as I can, but I think that question is probably best directed to the provincial government.

I will say that we have been very open about a willingness to partner up with provinces if they wish to co-invest. Some have not done that and others have, but our commitment remains the same. We want to have 100% coverage by 2030 and 98% by 2026, but I'm not really in a position to explain why a given jurisdiction may have decided not to do it. However, I understand the question.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you, and I understand the answer, because another comment that was made was that this problem existed as of 20 years ago. I did hear the comments here that amounts that were invested by the federal government at that time, which—help me out here, I believe that was Stephen Harper's Conservative government—were very modest.

When it comes to the Department of Industry allocating funds, investing and spending money, who makes the decision to allocate that money in the first place?

[Simon Kennedy]

The government, at the end of the day, decides how much to allocate to these priorities. It's the industry department's job to then determine how best to allocate the funding we've been given in our budget to individual projects to make sure that we're getting the best value for money.

I think it's fair to say that—and we've seen this not just in broadband but in other areas—the pandemic turbocharged interest in this area and turbocharged interest not just at the federal level but provincially.

My comment about funding, I think, is objectively true if you look at budgets in the past, but it is absolutely true, I would say, that even among provincial colleagues and others, the demand for broadband went through the roof as a result of the pandemic. Everybody was at home. Kids were learning online. What had started as, I think, a laudable goal to advance the cause of connection became a kind of urgent priority that not just the federal government but provinces were wanting to step up and invest in.

Business was good, but it became very good as a result of the pandemic.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you for that response.

I'd now like to talk about my riding of Châteauguay—Lacolle, which is both urban and rural and includes a substantial agricultural area.

In 2014 and 2015, during my election campaign, my fellow citizens told me how important it was for them to get connectivity. However, funding was lacking. On the federal government side, the Prime Minister of the day signalled no intention of helping them.

Subsequently, some very interesting projects were quickly proposed. Quebec's involvement helped significantly, not only in terms of financing, but for other obstacles encountered in carrying out the projects, didn't it?

Mr. Dagenais or Mr. Kennedy could doubtless tell us more.

[Éric Dagenais]

In fact, the implementation of the projects posed certain challenges, for example with regard to access to poles owned by Bell or Hydro-Québec. Quebec then set up, in collaboration with the federal government, a concertation table, where I played an observer role. The partnership with Quebec was truly excellent, and the province achieved results that speak for themselves. The concertation table made a real difference to project implementation. Experienced people from all the companies involved could come and talk to Quebec decision-makers and tell them about the pitfalls they were facing, and problems were quickly resolved.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

That's excellent. It's precisely an approach that I recommend to my colleagues who have problems at home, for example in Manitoba and New Brunswick. We need the provincial and federal governments to work together and sign agreements. That's what gets results.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

We're turning to our next round.

Mr. Stewart, the ball's in your court.

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In terms of my question earlier, maybe I wasn't clear. I don't see this as a partisan issue. Do I believe this government is the worst one ever? I do, but I went back 20 years on my testimony, so I'm going to ask it again.

I have the Liberal member who thinks the provincial government's in charge of Internet. I was there 11 years. I was a cabinet minister. We were not in charge of Internet. I know that inside and out.

To get back to my question, you said it was industry. Am I to believe...? Am I to tell my constituents that the private sector is totally in charge of who gets proper Internet and cellular mobility—yes or no?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Wait just one second, Mr. Stewart.

What's the point of order?

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

On a point of order, indeed, I believe my colleague is making partisan references when he said that he was choosing not to.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That's not a point of order, Mrs. Shanahan. You gave it pretty good, so it's Mr. Stewart's turn. He has the floor for five minutes.

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

That's a yes-or-no answer. Is it yes or no? We know that it's not the provincial government. I believe it's the federal government. I want to know who's responsible, who's at fault, for rural Canadians not having proper cellular and Internet capabilities. Who's responsible?

[Simon Kennedy]

As I noted in my last response, my view is that the Department of Industry is responsible for closing the gap. That's an explicit assignment that we were given. We've been given the resources and we're working on that.

My comments earlier were simply to note that, absent a government program such as this, there's no particular requirement for.... I mean, a private company can bury a fibre optic cable if it makes the investment and serves itself. It's not obliged—

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

That's good. I appreciate that. It's the federal government, then, and it's the Department of Industry. I'll accept that answer. It does make sense to me.

I have another question for you. In New Brunswick we have first nations. I know that we've talked a bit about this file. Seeing that the federal government currently doesn't see fit to ensure that indigenous peoples across the country have access to clean and proper drinking water, how do you feel about their chances of affording the same communities Internet services and mobility?

[Simon Kennedy]

I would just note, and I'd be happy to provide the very specific figures to the committee, that we agree that there's more work to be done to connect up indigenous communities. That is unquestioned. We agree that there's more work to be done for rural communities.

I will, however, return to my earlier testimony. The record shows that there has been substantial progress in connecting rural and indigenous communities, including in New Brunswick. Our expectation is that by the end of 2026 we will have connected virtually all households in New Brunswick—virtually all, at 99.6%—and that is as a result of the investments being made. I would not dispute that there are rural areas or indeed indigenous communities that are not connected today, and that's a problem, but that is what we're focused on and—

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

I appreciate your answer, but I think my point was more that it's hard to imagine first nations or indigenous communities getting proper Internet when they don't have proper water. It's very hard to imagine that, even for the average Canadian citizen who might be listening today.

We know that the government has enough money for McKinsey and the ArriveCAN app. We know that they've been null on foreign interference. They've spent more money than every prime minister in history combined. Why doesn't everyone in my province already have proper Internet and mobility? What's the holdup? I mean, think about it. It's 2023. I've just told you that South Korea 20 years ago was better than us now. What's the holdup? Clearly the government enjoys spending taxpayer dollars. What's the holdup?

[Simon Kennedy]

Mr. Chair, maybe I'd just make, again, two comments.

One, and I'd be happy to table this, it is absolutely true that we have more work to do on rural and remote and indigenous coverage. In terms of comparisons to another country, I'd be happy to share the data. Canada in aggregate actually compares quite favourably with many other advanced jurisdictions. I don't know about South Korea. Obviously, it's a different geography and a different context—

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

They're number one in the world.

[Simon Kennedy]

—but if you look at Europe or the United States, actually our coverage is generally good. Our networks are generally of higher quality. In the coverage of rural areas, even though we have more work to do in Canada, for sure, we actually compare favourably internationally. We have a price issue, which the government is focused on, but on coverage, Canada actually stacks up reasonably well.

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

Not in rural Canada.