Evidence of meeting #75 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was projects.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Karen Hogan  Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
Simon Kennedy  Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
Vicky Eatrides  Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Éric Dagenais  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Spectrum and Telecommunications Sector, Department of Industry
Scott Hutton  Chief of Consumer, Research and Communications, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

11:25 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Simon Kennedy

I might turn to my colleague, who was leading some of the discussions with the provincial governments. I think that part of the success was a willingness of both levels of government to work together and coordinate their efforts. With the significant, frankly, provincial investments that were made to partner up with the federal government, we've been able to go much further in some jurisdictions, frankly, because the provincial government put money on the table.

Ontario is a great example of where we've been able to extend coverage further and faster, if you like, because the provincial government has made such a significant contribution.

The other thing I would say would be that you could make a good case with the significant federal dollars put in. The provincial match also enables us to do things like spend more of the money on high-speed fibre optic technology. Frankly, when we began this process at the outset of the pandemic and very early on, we didn't necessarily imagine that most jurisdictions would say that they wanted to go right to fibre optics. There are a lot of other technologies, like microwave and using radios and so on, where the capacity is good—it's broadband—but it's not nearly as good as fibre optic. It's also cheaper.

When we started this process we would have imagined that, given the amount of money available, we would have extended broadband but that some of the technologies would not have been state-of-the-art fibre optic. The provincial investment has allowed us to go to the very highest premium service in most of the investments we've made. I would say that Quebec is mostly fibre optic—is it not?

11:30 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Spectrum and Telecommunications Sector, Department of Industry

Éric Dagenais

Yes. There are a few homes that are currently served by satellite—

11:30 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Simon Kennedy

They are very remote.

11:30 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Spectrum and Telecommunications Sector, Department of Industry

Éric Dagenais

Yes, they're very remote homes.

The objective is to have full fibre connectivity. Most of the companies are done by now, but there are still a few homes being connected.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Mr. Dagenais, do you have more comments with respect to other provinces?

11:30 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Spectrum and Telecommunications Sector, Department of Industry

Éric Dagenais

We've been working with Quebec for a number of years. They are done.

One thing to keep in mind is that they started before other provinces, so they did go very quickly. I think there was determined leadership at the provincial level, and there were political commitments made to go very quickly. They started in 2020 and even 2019.

The other thing is that they were willing to take some risks, and there was no open competition for the awards. There were bilateral negotiations with the various Internet service providers, but a lot of governments would rather have an open competition. There were things that were done differently and that we could learn from, but at the end of the day, they were the first province to get to 100%.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you very much.

Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné, you have six minutes.

October 5th, 2023 / 11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning to you, Madam Auditor General, and to all the witnesses who have joined us today.

I'd like to ask some questions along the same lines as my colleague Mr. Mazier, about economies of scale that could have been achieved if both cellular and Internet connections had been considered. I'd like to hear more. I understand you don't have a goal for cellular connection.

Why didn't you simply view these two programs as being complementary programs that could be carried out together?

11:30 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Simon Kennedy

I'll provide a brief answer, then ask my colleague Mr. Dagenais to offer a slightly more detailed response.

We know there's a lot of work to be done when it comes to cellular coverage in rural areas. I'm not trying to suggest that there's no more work to be done, but even in rural areas, the vast majority of households have cellular coverage. We're talking about highways and such. As far as broadband is concerned, that's more about communities, places where people live. So they're not exactly the same targets for investment.

I will turn this over to my colleague, if you wish.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

Quickly, I'd like you to tell me more, Mr. Dagenais.

11:30 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Spectrum and Telecommunications Sector, Department of Industry

Éric Dagenais

At the time, there was a considerable gap in home Internet coverage compared to cellular coverage. So the decision was made to fund a program to connect households to the Internet as a priority. We started with that.

11:30 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Simon Kennedy

It's not as if economies of scale were possible if we did both at the same time.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

For example, economies of scale could have been achieved had we planned to build a tower of a certain size so that it could be used for both cellular and Internet connection at the same time, rather than having to build another tower later on or resort to other means to establish the connection.

11:30 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Spectrum and Telecommunications Sector, Department of Industry

Éric Dagenais

Yes. That said, most of the projects we're funding right now, as Mr. Kennedy indicated, are fibre optic projects, for which we don't build towers.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

No, indeed.

11:35 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Spectrum and Telecommunications Sector, Department of Industry

Éric Dagenais

We often use telephone poles or buried cables. So, insofar as we don't build towers, there are no economies of scale to be made.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

However, I don't imagine that you install underground cables reaching all the way to the most remote areas. For those, that's clearly not the best solution. As you said earlier, in Quebec, for example, remote areas are covered by satellite or other means.

Wouldn't there have been economies of scale had both programs been implemented at the same time?

11:35 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Spectrum and Telecommunications Sector, Department of Industry

Éric Dagenais

There again, satellite coverage doesn't require building towers. Sometimes infrastructures can overlap, as in a Venn diagram. For example, infrastructure for cellular coverage can sometimes be used for Internet coverage, in the case of fixed wireless services, but those infrastructures are often quite different.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

Every year, on the only roads they can use to get to work or school, people die for lack of access to cellular coverage. This happens in ridings like that of my colleague Marilène Gill, in the Côte-Nord region. We really must pull out all the stops to solve this problem.

In Quebec, we've pulled out all the stops for Internet coverage. As you said, the provincial government went ahead before the federal government, because they thought the federal government was stalling a bit. Then the money was transferred to the province and everything was done properly.

For cellular coverage, however, there's still a great deal to do. Many of these companies operate on a national scale. Even if a fourth player enters the arena, so to speak, these companies are operating nationally.

Why not require them to cover entire territories, rather than handing them highly lucrative parts of the market? Why not be a little tougher on certain companies that might dictate their cellular coverage?

11:35 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Spectrum and Telecommunications Sector, Department of Industry

Éric Dagenais

I can tell you that at the recent auction, in 2021, the deployment requirements for those who bought spectrum licenses were the strictest ever imposed. They had to cover their entire LTE network. So it was very strict. We're going to do the same thing for the auctions that begin in three weeks.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

Don't you think we should go a little further to cover, as you said earlier, freeways and roads that are still heavily used and have no coverage, which can be dangerous?

11:35 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Spectrum and Telecommunications Sector, Department of Industry

Éric Dagenais

We agree that cell phone coverage on the roads is a priority issue. The Auditor General has asked us to look into it, and we will.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

Very well, but you just said that you haven't changed the terms and conditions for the next call for tenders. Why don't you go a step further and require that?

I remind you that these companies reap huge profits. So if we were to ask them to extend their coverage a little, particularly on the roads and freeways that are important to our fellow citizens, that would be a good step.

Why ask them to cover only their LTE network? Why not be a little more demanding of these companies?

11:35 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Spectrum and Telecommunications Sector, Department of Industry

Éric Dagenais

We're looking into it right now. I really can't provide you with a more detailed answer.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

All right. Will you be able to give us an update when you've finished looking into this? To that end, I would call upon the Clerk and the Chair. It would be reassuring for the citizens we represent to know that they will finally have cell phone coverage on the roads they travel, and that fatal accidents will be avoided as a result.

I think I have 15 seconds left, don't I, Mr. Chair?