Evidence of meeting #78 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was found.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Karen Hogan  Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
Jean Goulet  Principal, Office of the Auditor General
Carol McCalla  Principal, Office of the Auditor General

October 19th, 2023 / 10:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 78 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), the committee is meeting today to examine the 2023 reports 5 to 9 of the Auditor General of Canada, referred to the committee on Thursday, October 19.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses and thank them for being here. They are all from the Office of the Auditor General. We have Karen Hogan, Auditor General; Carey Agnew, principal; Markirit Armutlu, principal; Jean Goulet, principal; and Carol McCalla, principal.

It's great to see you all here today.

Ms. Hogan, you have the floor for an opening statement. I understand it's going to run about 10 to 12 minutes.

It's over to you, please.

10:20 a.m.

Karen Hogan Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I wish to acknowledge that the lands on which we are gathered are part of the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

I'm pleased to be here today to discuss the reports that were just tabled in the House of Commons. We also included copies of special examinations of the Royal Canadian Mint, the Canadian Museum of History and the Laurentian Pilotage Authority. These three reports were made public by the Crown corporations earlier this year.

I'm accompanied today by the principals who were responsible for the five performance audits.

There are two points that stood out to me from all of these performance audits.

The first is data. Weak or underused data often affects departments' and agencies' ability to make well-informed decisions, to monitor and report on results, and to assess the effectiveness of their decisions. Ultimately, these blind spots—identified in all of our reports—reduce the public service's ability to deliver programs and services that meet people's needs.

My second point is timeliness, and the impacts of failing to take prompt action. This theme runs through all the reports that I have presented today, whether the limited progress on antimicrobial resistance, which the World Health Organization called a “silent pandemic” last year, or the aging of information technology, or IT, systems—a problem that the government has known about for 24 years. Progress that is measured in years, if not decades, is simply not acceptable when people risk not receiving benefits they rely on, or when people do not have access to medicines they need.

I will turn first to our audit of antimicrobial resistance, an area that my office last examined in 2015.

When it comes to public health, the COVID‑19 pandemic showed that the cost of not being prepared is measured in lives lost. For this reason, antimicrobial resistance is concerning. The rate of resistance to first-line antibiotics in Canada was estimated at 26% in 2018, and it is likely to reach 40% by 2050.

We found that, overall, the federal government has not done enough to address this problem.

While the Public Health Agency of Canada released a pan-Canadian action plan on antimicrobial resistance in June 2023, I am concerned that it lacks critical elements like concrete deliverables, timelines, ways to measure progress and clear roles and responsibilities for each level of government. Without these elements, it is unlikely that this plan will result in any progress.

We found that the Public Health Agency and Health Canada have been slow to implement regulatory and other changes, such as economic incentives, that could improve Canadians' access to antibiotics of last resort. Only two of 13 new antibiotics used to fight drug-resistant infections are available in Canada, yet all 13 are available in the United States.

To successfully fight antimicrobial resistance, Canada needs a full picture of antimicrobial use and resistance across the country and a solid plan so that the right medicines are available and used in the right way to protect the health of Canadians.

Let's look next at two audits that are closely related. The first examined the government's overall approach to modernizing its information technology systems, while the second focused on a specific program to modernize how more than 10 million Canadians receive old age security, Canada pension plan and employment insurance benefits.

In the first audit, we found that about two-thirds of the approximately 7,500 software applications used in the government were in poor condition, including 562 that are essential to the health, safety, security and economic well-being of Canadians. We found that a number of factors contributed to delays and cost increases. They include a lack of centralized leadership and oversight, a shortage of skilled people to carry out the work and an inflexible funding approach. Every day that these systems are not modernized increases the risk that they may fail and that Canadians may lose access to essential services.

The second audit, focusing on the benefits delivery modernization program, echoed these findings. Progress on modernizing the systems that deliver benefits to Canadians has encountered delays, cost increases and staffing challenges. The program is halfway through its 13‑year timeline, and all benefits are still running on systems that are 20 to 60 years old.

This second audit also illustrates how the government’s funding approach is poorly suited to large IT projects. When the benefits delivery modernization program was launched in 2017, Employment and Social Development Canada estimated that it would cost $1.75 billion. That number has since been revised twice to reach $2.5 billion in April 2022, and is likely to change again in the face of further delays and challenges. That represents a 43% increase of the 2017 number, and no benefits have been migrated to the new platform at this point.

We found that the department adjusted it's approach to deal with the delays and other challenges in the benefits delivery modernization program. For example, it moved old age security, the oldest of the three systems and the one at greatest risk of failing, ahead of employment insurance in the migration schedule.

While Employment and Social Development Canada's decision to focus on migrating the system rightly prioritizes the continuity of benefits, I am concerned that, if challenges and delays continue, decisions could be made to remove aspects of transformation or take shortcuts to maintain the timelines or budgets, as happened with the Phoenix pay system. This would put the benefits delivery modernization program at risk of resulting in a final product that fails to meet the needs of diverse and vulnerable client groups, including seniors, people in remote locations, indigenous people and refugees.

Our fourth audit looked at the processing of immigration applications for permanent residence. We found delays, backlogs and inefficiencies that affect the lives of people seeking to permanently make Canada their home, with the greatest impact on those applying to refugee programs.

While Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada improved the time it took to process applications and reduced backlogs overall in 2022, it did not meet its service standards for prompt processing in any of the eight programs we examined. People applying to refugee programs waited the longest—on average, close to three years. At the end of 2022, 99,000 refugees were still waiting for decisions on their applications, and in the current processing environment, many will be waiting years.

Although the government sets the target for how many permanent residents are admitted to Canada in a given year, we found that most delays and backlogs were caused by the department's own processes. For example, the department did not always process applications in the order they were received, causing older applications to get further backlogged, or it routed applications to offices without considering their processing capacities.

Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, or IRCC, also did not assess whether its automated eligibility assessment tool reduced overall processing times for all applicants as intended, nor did it identify and resolve any unintended differential outcomes.

IRCC needs to analyze its backlogs to understand the root causes for differential outcomes, ensure that the tools it implements are not contributing to these differences, and match workloads to available resources in its offices to improve processing times.

Our last audit looked at actions taken by six federal organizations to foster an inclusive organizational culture and correct conditions of disadvantage in employment experienced by racialized employees. We found that all six organizations had action plans to address equity, diversity and inclusion, and took some actions, but none measured, or comprehensively reported on, progress against outcomes.

We also found that organizations were not always using performance agreements for executives, managers and supervisors to create accountability for fostering inclusion and change. To the racialized employees who volunteered to be interviewed for this audit, these and other gaps were viewed as a lack of true commitment to equity, diversity and inclusion.

Although the six organizations we audited focused on the goal of assembling a workforce representative of Canadian society, that is only the first step. It is not enough to achieve the change needed to create a truly inclusive workplace. For that change to happen, departments need to actively engage with their racialized employees, to meaningfully use the data they have to inform their decisions and to hold their leadership accountable for delivering change.

These issues are not new. If COVID‑19 taught us anything, it is that being prepared and acting early cost less and result in better outcomes. I said it in March 2021, and I will repeat it today: The government should not need a crisis to understand the importance of prompt action.

Mr. Chair, that concludes my opening remarks. We'll be pleased to take any questions. Thank you.

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you very much.

There are a few pressure points that we're facing this morning. One, of course, is Ms. Hogan's and her team's time. The other is that we will have bells at some point. I've spoken to representatives from the various parties and I think there is agreement to go approximately 15 minutes into the bells, with maybe a minute or two added on if someone is in the middle of questioning, but not to go any more beyond that.

With your agreement, I'm going to begin this meeting.

Ms. Hogan, would you be able to stay a bit beyond 11 if we're on a roll here? Good. We won't push it beyond that, and I think the bells will have ended.

As well, just to remind members, there will be the predictable party order, but I'm going to have questions of three minutes each to hear from as many members as we possibly can in the time we have.

Without further ado, I turn to Mr. Kmiec.

You have the floor for three minutes, please.

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Auditor General, for coming.

My first question is with regard to report nine, which is on IRCC. You've done a performance audit here of the eight different permanent resident programs. On page 10, it says that since 2019 the service standards have not been reviewed, despite there being an increase in applications. You found that none of the programs have been reviewed or updated, and then you also say further down that the two refugee programs have no set service standards, but that those are required by the Treasury Board.

Is the department in violation of Treasury Board directives?

10:30 a.m.

Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

When a department provides a service, it is required by a Treasury Board policy to give an indication to Canadians of how long they can expect...what an expected service standard is. It is an essential requirement, and we made some recommendations to the department about that.

I think the most important thing that we found, however, is that the existing service standards are not reliable. The department has not met them for many years. Our recommendation centred around being more transparent with applicants to ensure that they understand how long the wait will actually be. The wait is long and refugees, who are arguably some of the most vulnerable, are waiting the longest—almost three years. While they have no service standard, they should at least understand how long they might wait.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Is the department in violation of the Treasury Board directive to set a service standard? It says it's required by the directive. In the government's response, it says yes, but when you talk to the people in the department, they have no plan to set a standard.

Are they in violation of the Treasury Board directive?

10:35 a.m.

Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

It is a requirement of the directive, so yes, they should be making it clear and transparent to applicants how long they might wait for the processing of their applications.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

So they're in violation.

You also mentioned, Auditor General, the processing times. In all of our MP offices, we probably get hundreds of people every single year—some of us probably get closer to thousands of people—who come in and say that they're beyond the service standard. They show us what the application portal says. It could be 400 days. I had a constituent from Tanzania, and 1,013 days was what was showing in her portal.

However, according to this.... I thought it was the average processing time expected, as in they take all of the applications, they look at the capacity and they think they're going to be able to do that. Your report says, though, on page 11, that they only take the previous six months of applications processed, and that's what they post.

I feel misled, and I feel that the government, the department, is lying to my constituents when it says, “This is the expected processing time,” because that's not what it is. It tells them, “You should expect your application to be processed in this timeline.” However, that's not what it's doing. It's only taking what it has processed in the previous six months. It could have 50,000 applications that it has to process in the future.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Mr. Kmiec, I'm going to just pause you there.

If you'd like to just provide a brief response, please, Auditor....

10:35 a.m.

Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

The department is providing the accurate information of what it took for the last six months, but it misses the fact that there is an inventory of applications that have been sitting there for much longer. It gives a sense of the workload and the capacity driven in the last six months. However, again, it doesn't give applicants a transparent understanding of how long they might wait, which is exactly why we recommended that to the department: to be transparent about how long it's going to take.

It will take time, but people should know how long.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you very much.

Mrs. Shanahan, you have the floor for approximately three minutes.

10:35 a.m.

Liberal

Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Auditor General Hogan—and your team—for the work that you have done under what I know are, very often, challenging circumstances.

I'm struck by two of the comments in your remarks.

First is the concluding one that, basically, the government should not need a crisis to understand the importance of prompt action. I would summarize that with “penny-wise and pound foolish” as an expression that we do need to invest and spend the funds necessary to bolster systems.

Earlier on, you said that you are concerned that, if challenges and delays continue in the modernization and transformation of the IT systems, decisions could be made “to remove aspects of transformation or take shortcuts” to maintain the timelines or budget. These decisions have not been made, at this time, but they could be made in the future.

Can you please talk to us about...? First of all, address the difference between modernization and transformation with regard to information technology systems. Then, with reference to report seven, what investments, in total, have you seen being done where they're helpful? Where are the gaps, and where do you see that improvements need to be made?

10:35 a.m.

Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

One of my guiding themes through some of these reports is that it's taking a long time to accomplish things. I said that in 2021 when we were releasing reports around the response to the pandemic. At that time, we found that the government had not acted on things that it knew following H1N1 and SARS.

When we turn now to looking at.... I'll mention two quick reports and then get to the IT one. I would mention antimicrobial resistance commitments that the government made back in 2015. We're seeing limited progress. However, more perplexing would be knowing 24 years ago that aging IT systems are a problem and then still not having a strategy today on how to modernize the government's systems. That is concerning.

You asked me to explain the difference between modernization and transformation. They're very closely linked.

When we talk about modernization, the government defines it as moving to a better platform, a more stable platform, one with newer technologies—for example, using the cloud. That would be taking old systems—some of the systems we looked at are 20 to 60 years old—and moving them to more modern applications.

Transforming is really about the user experience. It's ensuring that there is greater access, that more people eligible for benefits can access them. It's also making it more user-friendly so that, when you try to apply for employment insurance, old age security or the Canada pension plan, it's easier to do.

Those two are essential. We're concerned about losing sight on the transformation, the user-friendly aspect, because those were some of the cutbacks that we saw during other IT programs in the public service. We want to just caution that, when you lack investment over decades in IT systems, it's going to take some time and money to modernize them, so don't forget that transforming them into better service delivery for millions of Canadians is important.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you.

Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you have three minutes. Go ahead.

10:40 a.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the Auditor General and her office for their work. Their reports are very informative, giving us a good understanding of what's happening in government right now.

I'll start with report 6, entitled “Antimicrobial Resistance”. Ms. Hogan, do you have an idea of how much the government has spent on addressing antimicrobial resistance?

10:40 a.m.

Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

I don't know the amount off the top of my head, but we will check.

In looking at what had been spent, we found that no funding had been dedicated to improving data on antimicrobial resistance. The departments really pulled from existing budgets in 2021 and 2022 to fund the program. When you don't dedicate money or resources to an activity, you don't make any progress.

10:40 a.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

I would really like to know how much, but in the meantime, can you tell me whether any health initiatives were supported or encouraged, at least in some provinces. Health is an area of provincial jurisdiction and the Public Health Agency of Canada is supposed to redistribute the money to provinces, so do you know whether that happened?

10:40 a.m.

Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

The activities we examined were not activities undertaken by the provinces.

10:40 a.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

I understand, but if the Public Health Agency of Canada redistributed—

10:40 a.m.

Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

The focus was really on activities that were carried out by the federal government. Between 2021 and 2023, approximately $35 million was spent largely on antimicrobial resistance research, not on efforts to execute the pan-Canadian action plan on antimicrobial resistance. I actually have some concerns about the action plan, since it's missing crucial elements.

10:40 a.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

Like what?

10:40 a.m.

Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

It lacks elements such as timelines, concrete goals and details about jurisdictional roles and responsibilities.

10:40 a.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

Were the provinces consulted when the plan was being developed?

10:40 a.m.

Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

Absolutely. All the provinces and territories were consulted and signed the agreement.

10:40 a.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

Very good.