Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 31st, 2023

[Lorenzo Ieraci]

It's hard for me to answer that question. The only thing I could say is that I know that, in certain situations, the buildings are in such a state that it's hard or dangerous to try to keep them intact and usable. In this case, for operational and safety reasons, it's possible that they have to be demolished to make way for the construction of a new building, even though they're part of a complex considered as being of heritage importance. I know that's not something that anyone wants to do systematically, but sometimes it's necessary in certain situations.

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Just a moment, please, Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné.

Go ahead on a point of order.

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

I'm not sure, Mr. Chair, if it's a point of order, but I think it's important. There seems to be an awful lot of information on older, dilapidated buildings flowing from the two witnesses, but nothing on the barn.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Stewart—

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

We're here for the barn.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Stewart, I appreciate that, but that is not a point of order.

You have 20 seconds left, Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I had 30 seconds left before that point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'll allow it.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Mr. Ieraci, in your experience, have you often seen this level of spending to preserve heritage buildings? In this instance, we aren't even preserving a heritage building but rather demolishing it and building a new one.

[Lorenzo Ieraci]

I don't have a lot of experience or knowledge in the real estate construction business. To tell you the truth, I have no point of reference that would indicate to whether the total cost of nearly $8 million for this building was or wasn't an effective expenditure.

When the NCC people testify before the committee, they'll be able to give you more details on the expenditures that have been made for that building and the reason why they were necessary.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for two and a half minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I also want to thank the witnesses for being in attendance here.

I fully recognize that the NCC is not present here and that many of the questions that are directed to you today should in fact be directed to the NCC. That's something my committee colleagues and I will have to take into consideration when thinking about next steps. It's something I think our chair will be able to follow up on.

In relation to the source issue of this topic, I think this is about more than just this one barn—the one barn doesn't operate in isolation. At least, to me, it's about the process and procedure and how, for example, Public Services, the Treasury Board and the NCC interact with one another in order to create, oftentimes, what are cycles of mistrust that Canadians feel in this process, whether with a Liberal or a Conservative government. This has been going on for a long time.

A similar controversy took place when Stephen Harper was Prime Minister and it was his own residence that was contemplated at the time, the Prime Minister's residence. Now, of course, we both know it's not being used. So there are risks to politically motivated decisions when it comes to NCC's processes of taking in information and attempting to reconcile it later on. We often see higher costs.

I think there's a larger issue here that stems from the transparency, the trust and the efficacy of spending related to these kinds of projects. That's, I think, what will be of most importance to me as a member moving forward. I think that's probably where we should focus most of our time if we want to actually build trust and if we want to actually do the work of holding Canada's institutions accountable for these kinds of expenditures.

I'd like to give a moment to both of you gentlemen present here to talk about how we can strengthen transparency and accountability, from your perspective, from your roles and from your experience, and how we can avoid a situation like this, in which the public perceives such a great level of mistrust in these types of expenditures, whether they're for this or for the official opposition's residence, Stornoway, for example, which continues to build up charges to the taxpayers.

[Brian Gear]

One thing I will say is that it has certainly not gone unnoticed that Parliament has made more and more requests for greater transparency on the part of Crown corporations. I will note that we have been working with Crown corporations to try to enhance reporting and transparency. For example, we have been asking Crown corporations to report more on a number of government priorities, such as diversity and inclusion, as well as on greening operations and the environmental and sustainable development goals. So efforts have been made and there will be continued efforts to further enhance the reporting by Crown corporations.

There are a lot of things that need to be considered as we look at measures to enhance transparency. As I mentioned, some of these Crown corporations do function in a competitive environment, and there are certain restrictions in terms of the information that can be disclosed. We are continuing to work on that with Crown corporations and we respect the obvious desire of parliamentarians to have greater information.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Nater, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses.

I will maybe start by pointing out that the NCC does have a lot to answer for. I do look forward to hearing from Mr. Nussbaum of the NCC. Of course, we all will remember that he was the infamous Ottawa city councillor who quit days after the 2018 municipal election, triggering an expensive by-election here in the city of Ottawa. I guess we know where his care for taxpayer dollars comes from. We look forward to hearing from the current CEO and former Liberal Party donor Mr. Nussbaum when he comes to committee, hopefully, when he gets back from vacation. We're looking forward to that.

I'll start by saying, as a farm kid from Logan Township, that $8 million for a barn, a shed or a storage facility just boggles my mind. When we can hear quotes from contractors talking about maybe $120 or $150 per square foot, and then we hear somewhere in the neighbourhood of $930 per square foot, it obviously boggles the mind for folks who are in the business of contracting out. It “barn-doggles”, as my friend Mr. Stewart would say.

I'm new to this committee, so forgive me if some of my questions may seem rudimentary or are just scratching the surface.

Mr. Gear, I understand there's a directive on the management of projects and programs through the Treasury Board Secretariat. Could you confirm whether or not the National Capital Commission is subject to that directive?

[Brian Gear]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.

As a Crown corporation, they are not subject to that particular directive.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Would you be aware of whether or not there was an organizational project management capacity assessment done at the National Capital Commission?

[Brian Gear]

I don't have that information, myself.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Mr. Ieraci, I have a similar question for you. Do you know whether or not there was an organizational project management capacity assessment completed?

[Lorenzo Ieraci]

For the National Capital Commission, I don't have the answer to that question.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Would you be aware of the project complexity and risk assessment tool that the Treasury Board Secretariat has implemented, where each project is subject to such an assessment?

[Lorenzo Ieraci]

Do you mean for Public Services and Procurement Canada?

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Yes.

[Lorenzo Ieraci]

Yes, within our department, we are subject to that policy. We have mechanisms in place, particularly on our real property side, in terms of project management. All projects are assessed based on risk and so on.