Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 31st, 2023

[Lorenzo Ieraci]

They have autonomy for the budget they have: how they're going to expend and operationalize that budget.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

When the project was launched, do you know how long it was expected to last and whether it was on schedule?

[Lorenzo Ieraci]

I unfortunately don't know the answer to that question.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Would you have any idea if the costs are higher than those of similar projects carried out by the commission or other organizations?

[Lorenzo Ieraci]

I can't do comparisons in terms of the NCC's activities, because that would be within the NCC.

What I can say is that I saw from the public information by the National Capital Commission that the project did come within the budget that had been identified.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Maybe you could just review the history of this project. It keeps being referred to as a “barn” and it's actually a kind of maintenance facility or storage facility. Could you give us more details about the history of this site and its use prior to this project?

[Lorenzo Ieraci]

Again, the National Capital Commission will be able to provide a more comprehensive response, but based on the information I have, it used to be a series of four buildings that were past their life cycle and had some health and safety concerns, so they basically needed to be changed, updated or demolished, basically.

As part of that, there was some site preparation. There had to be some abatement work and some demolition had to be done of the previous facilities for the National Capital Commission to build this new storage facility, which, as I mentioned previously, does a number of activities, including vehicle storage, repair garage, and equipment and tool storage. They have workspaces there.

Again, my understanding is that they use this facility to be able to undertake the maintenance of the 79 acres of the Rideau Hall grounds.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Are there any particular specifications for this building, do you know?

[Lorenzo Ieraci]

In terms of requirements, the National Capital Commission would be able to let you know what their requirements were from an operational perspective.

What I would indicate—which, again, is publicly available information—is the transition from the four old buildings, which were removed, to the new building. The new building is considered a green building and has zero carbon emissions associated with it.

In terms of the actual requirements and what they're actually using the building for—what they needed in terms of size, space and equipment within it—again, the National Capital Commission, as part of its activities and its responsibilities, would be the one to determine the requirements and undertake the activities to build the facility.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

This was a brand new construction. Would it be reasonable to say that the fact that they were building it to the Canada Green Building Council's zero-carbon building standards might have increased the cost? Might there have been additional costs incurred to achieve those standards?

[Lorenzo Ieraci]

I can't give you a definitive answer on that one, because I don't have access to the analysis. The National Capital Commission could give you that.

I have been informed, through other activities in industry and real property sectors, that when you do go towards greening, there may be an additional cost at the beginning that will be incurred, with the offset of greener facilities on a go-forward basis. Depending on the amortization period, it may not be that much more expensive.

In this case, again, the National Capital Commission would be able to provide you with a response more specific to this building.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Just to get it on the record, and this is public information, I believe this building is the Government of Canada's first zero-carbon building in the national capital region.

[Lorenzo Ieraci]

That is what the National Capital Commission has posted on their website, yes.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Right.

Could you explain to us how the minister communicates with Crown corporations?

[Lorenzo Ieraci]

Do you mean generally speaking, or with regard to the National Capital Commission?

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Well, let's talk about the National Capital Commission, because that's what we're talking about in this case.

[Lorenzo Ieraci]

From a communications perspective, there would be two forms of communications. I would call them “formal” and “informal”.

On the formal side, it's some of the things that were mentioned by my colleague. Through the review of corporate plans, there are letters of expectations that are sent to the CEOs of all Crown corporations by ministers, which basically identify the expectations of the minister in terms of what the Crown corporations will do in terms of activities. Those would be the primary ones, or what I would call “formal”.

Of course, ministers are free to meet with the chair of the board of directors and/or the CEO of the Crown corporation to ensure that government policy and government direction are understood by the Crown corporation and that the Crown corporation is seeking to adjust its activities to be aligned with the overall government direction.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

That is the time.

Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The main objective of this meeting was to look into the $8 million allocated to this barn in the broader context of the role the Governor General plays. A lot of public money goes into supporting this quite archaic function; that's the least you can say about it. To put it more bluntly, I'd even say it's a pointless function.

You can clearly see that there is a problem here if you consider this $8 million expenditure for a barn in a broader context.

Let's see what answer you have to give us because we haven't received a lot of information from you so far.

You mentioned a renovation plan approved by the Treasury Board. Is that correct?

[Brian Gear]

Thank you for your question.

What happens is that the corporate plan outlines the major activities that are being planned by the Crown corporation. The corporate plan goes to Treasury Board for approval. It would outline the major activities. As I said, it would not necessarily be project by project. It would be a higher-level major activity.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

What was the total expenditure amount that you approved for Rideau Hall?

[Brian Gear]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair, but I don't have that information with me.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

You come to a committee to discuss Rideau Hall expenditures, and you don't know how much you've approved or how much has been spent on Rideau Hall. You don't have that information. That shows an obvious lack of preparation. I'd like you please to submit that information to us as soon as possible.

Let's continue with the other questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Just a minute, Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné.

Is that something you could do, Mr. Gear? Could you submit the documents at a later date?

[Brian Gear]

[Inaudible—Editor] submit financial information.