Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2023

[Andrew Hayes]

I'm not sure that I'm in a position to comment on that.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Have you had maybe a comparative analysis as to how other countries have their process for holding government to account for issues like this?

[Andrew Hayes]

We know that there are definitely auditors general that are very similar to us across the world. There are public accounts committees very similar to this one across the world. There are commissions of inquiry that happen. There are a number of ways things can be pursued. In my view, at this stage, this is probably the best way to get to the bottom of what's happening and to provide Parliament with objective and impartial information on what's going on with this foundation.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That is the time, Ms. Khalid.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Can I have one last question, Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm afraid your time is up, Ms. Khalid.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Barrett, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

After RCGT released their report, SDTC responded, but I want to be clear that in this billion-dollar Liberal slush fund, $40 million was reviewed by RCGT, and it didn't provide the fund with a clean bill of health. Though the statement that was issued by SDTC said it found “no clear evidence of wrongdoing or misconduct”, that seems entirely inconsistent with the reality of the situation.

My review of the situation, following discussions with the whistle-blower and reviewing media reports.... I wrote to your office, requesting an audit. Your office had reviewed the report, has spoken with some of the players and has now launched an audit.

Is it credible to have the people who presided over the era in question to be charged by the Department of Innovation with implementing the minister's recommendations to rectify the issues that have been raised?

[Andrew Hayes]

If I might just address the SDTC statement, I'll note that they also said that “no further investigation is merited.” From our perspective, there is merit to doing a deeper dive into this.

The other point we wanted to look into is the statement they made that “regular business operations will continue, including the disbursal of funds for all existing projects in our portfolio in accordance with companies' contribution agreements.” We feel that there was a need to dig deeper.

Your specific question was about the competence of management to be able to rectify this. I don't have an opinion at this stage. This will be something that we will go into in an audit. If there are problems, we will highlight them. I know the government is aware as well of the nature of the allegations and the work we're going to do.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thank you.

I'm going to share some of my time with Mr. Brock in just a moment, but in light of the amount of funds that are available and the impropriety—the misconduct allegations that have been raised and the potential of fraud outlined by my colleague, Mr. Brock—is this the type of situation where funds should be suspended and their disbursal should not be continued?

[Andrew Hayes]

That is a decision that is for the government and the foundation to make. I do note that I believe they have suspended the approval of new projects.

At this point, we would need to do our work and make a recommendation.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Okay. Thank you very much.

I have about two minutes and 10 seconds left. I'd like to turn my time over to Mr. Brock, Mr. Chair.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I finished off by reading out to you subsection 380(1) of the Criminal Code, which speaks to fraud. The allegations, in my respectful view, sir, as a former Crown attorney, raise this to a possible fraud investigation, particularly when you're talking about grants, about free money—free taxpayer money—to start-ups with ties to own senior management. It raises a very high threshold, in my view, of criminality.

My concern is this. Given the RCMP's handling already of Justin Trudeau's Aga Khan affair—the illegal vacation—and most recently the SNC-Lavalin affair, where he refused to co-operate with the RCMP—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Wait for just one second, Mr. Brock. I have a point of order, please.

Ms. Khalid.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I would like to question the relevance of what Mr. Brock is asking.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I actually don't think that's a point of order.

Mr. Brock has the floor—

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Relevance is definitely a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I find his questioning to be quite illuminating and in line with this committee's review of this question.

Mr. Hayes has proven himself to be a very able witness, and I'm sure he will provide any information that he feels is relevant in this. If he does not, he will say so, as well.

Mr. Brock, the floor is yours again.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Given how some Canadians, if not millions of Canadians, feel that the RCMP mishandled both criminal investigations involving our sitting Prime Minister, is there any prohibition from your department of referring criminality, with respect to the handling of this particular scandal, to the Ontario Provincial Police in addition to the RCMP, who also have jurisdiction over the entire province of Ontario?

Is there any impediment to your doing so, sir?

[Andrew Hayes]

I would say that the normal course for us is to deal with the RCMP in matters such as this. I don't know whether or not we have referred a matter to another law enforcement agency before, for example, if we ever came across an individual situation where we might engage with Ottawa police or the OPP. I don't know if we've done that before.

I don't believe that there's a prohibition, and certainly there wouldn't be a prohibition from us responding to a production order or a warrant from—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Are you prepared to table the unredacted report from RCGT to this committee?

[Andrew Hayes]

I think that would be a matter for the department.

Again, I haven't reviewed the unredacted report, but I think that would be a question for the department.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Brock and Mr. Hayes.

I'm now turning to Ms. Bradford, I believe.

Ms. Bradford, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just to review and get it on the record, once ISED became aware of these allegations of mismanagement in the spring of this year, they hired a third party to do a fact-finding exercise, and that report was published in October, with suggestions and an action plan that the SDTC had to implement by December 2023.

Is that correct?