Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2023

[Andrew Hayes]

We haven't reached out to the Ethics Commissioner on that. Quite frankly, we are in the scoping phase of this audit, and we're looking at everything at this point.

I can say, with respect to the department, we've had regular discussions with them, at least since July, and even more so since September as the report was anticipated and after the report was presented. The lines of communication are open with the department. I've been happy with the information that we've been receiving.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Hayes. The member's time is up.

Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné, you have six minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Hayes, thank you for being here to answer our questions.

The Office of the Auditor General's announcement is interesting, since the subject has been discussed for several months now. You've confirmed for my colleagues that you were already aware of the situation and had been looking into it for a little while.

How long has the Auditor General's office been examining the issue?

[Andrew Hayes]

We received information from people who contacted our office at the end of November 2022. Those individuals have been in regular contact with our audit team.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Were those individuals whistleblowers?

[Andrew Hayes]

Yes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Are they public servants?

[Andrew Hayes]

I believe they were employees or former employees of the foundation.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Very well.

You mentioned earlier that you are currently defining the scope of the project. We know that a $400 million fund was announced. Will your report include the total amount spent since 2017, how it was spent and the evaluation process?

[Andrew Hayes]

I don't have a date yet for the starting point of our audit. I don't know if it will be 2017 or some other date. However, I can confirm that we will be looking at beneficiary eligibility, overpayments and possibly conflicts of interest. I don't know yet whether we'll be able to look at human resources issues. That will depend on the scope of our mandate.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

What more can you tell us about the scope of your mandate? At the moment, the period covered by the audit is not necessarily clear or defined, but how far will you go in terms of disclosures about beneficiaries and what took place? Will you assess whether the hundreds of millions of dollars granted for sustainable development have been put to good use?

[Andrew Hayes]

We certainly want to establish some findings about beneficiary eligibility. As in the case of our last reports on COVID‑19 benefits, for example, it's possible that we'll provide a total amount and make recommendations. However, at this time it's impossible for me to say with any certainty what we will reveal about beneficiaries.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

In 2017, the Office of the Auditor General tabled a report on Sustainable Development Technology Canada. The evaluation process was assessed, and the report's recommendations were, all in all, minor.

Can you tell us more about what changed in those few years, that is, between 2017 and today? Were there any changes in governance?

[Andrew Hayes]

Those are precisely the issues we want to examine. It was a report by the Commissioner for the Environment and Sustainable Development and, as you said, the findings were positive. So we're asking ourselves exactly the same questions. We want to understand what's changed.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Didn't the information provided over the past year by former employees, for example, give you some leads? I'm assuming they were on the job in 2017, since they're former employees. Surely they've given you information that might explain why, six years later and with $400 million more, things don't seem to be working at all at Sustainable Development Technology Canada.

[Andrew Hayes]

Those are issues the audit verification team is currently reviewing.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

So you can't tell me anything further at this point.

[Andrew Hayes]

No.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Very well.

Do you know whether or not the $400 million was spent?

[Andrew Hayes]

I don't know at this time, but it's something we want to look into.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

With regard to your conversations with government departments, I imagine you've already begun discussions with Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada. So far, does the department seem willing to collaborate with you on your study? Has it reacted to the Auditor General's announcement?

[Andrew Hayes]

All our discussions with the department were positive and collaborative. I have no complaints about our exchanges with the department or the information they provide.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Have you had collaborative exchanges with the staff at Sustainable Development Technology Canada?

[Andrew Hayes]

The audit team has entered into discussions with the foundation and I know they've already received some information. However, I don't know where the relationship with the foundation stands at the moment.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I have one final question: when do you think the audit will be finished?