Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2023

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I'll ask my last question now, then. Thank you, Chair.

It's a broader question, in some ways. Are you concerned in some part by the fact that there are many of these types of agreements that are at arm's length—I think you described them in those words—from the government? I'm growing concerned about the comment about your scope being restricted because of the contribution agreement.

Is it a concern to you and to the Auditor General's office in a larger and broader sense that these agreements could harbour points of access, or areas or barriers to your scope, not just for this particular audit, but for other audits, as well?

[Andrew Hayes]

This gives me an opportunity to blend a few answers here.

It's difficult to say whether or not we would have gone in to audit SDTC without the allegations, but we always monitor the budget implementation acts and the amounts that organizations get. SDTC, for example, is in the public accounts, so it's a component that we look at in our financial audit work.

With a large amount of money and a big program, it's possible that we would have gone in again at some point. The fact that we have the “follow the dollar” mandate in our act is a very important tool for us. We didn't have that before, and we wouldn't have had the ability to do what we're doing right now.

The biggest constraint that I'm worried about is the scope of the funding agreement and the limits we might have. I don't think there are going to be any real constraints for us in this, apart from the human resources side, but we still have to determine that.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

In that perspective of following the dollar and the issues related to the scope, why is it that HR issues can't be seen or reviewed by your office?

[Andrew Hayes]

It comes down to the level of control that the government has. The inside management decisions that don't relate to the funding agreement may be a little further outside of our scope than the other decisions relating to the implementation or execution of the funding agreement.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Make it a quick question, please, Mr. Desjarlais.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Okay. I'll be very fast.

In relation to the fall of the dollar and the instance in which administration fees are tacked on to these agreements, would those allow you access to the scope in order to include issues of HR?

[Andrew Hayes]

We would definitely be able to look at administration fees that were connected to the funding agreement. Whether or not that provides a deep enough hook for overall HR management is an open question for us.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Barrett, you have the floor again for five minutes.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thanks very much, Chair.

As we've heard from the government, they're going to participate or co-operate with the Auditor General's office on this. Aren't they required to participate? Their willingness is not an open question.

[Andrew Hayes]

We have a statutory power that allows us access to information and officials in a timely way.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Did you meet with the Department of Innovation? Have you met with them up to this point?

[Andrew Hayes]

Yes.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

How many times?

[Andrew Hayes]

I don't know if I can give you an exact number. It's regular. Since September, it's been more frequent. I'm going to say it's been more than five times since September that I've met with senior officials.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Did you meet with them last week?

[Andrew Hayes]

Yes.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Were you happy with the outcome and the productivity of that meeting?

[Andrew Hayes]

We informed them that we were conducting an audit on the basis of the information we had to date and asked for information, which we received, so I am satisfied with everything to date.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Were they pleased to receive the news that SDTC was going to be audited?

[Andrew Hayes]

I would say they accepted, as most organizations do, that we're coming in. In the discussions we've been having with them, the fact that there are open questions is something that needs to be sorted out.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Sure.

Do you know anything about the scope of the RCGT report?

[Andrew Hayes]

We have information from the department about the scope and the approach that RCGT took. I have those documents, but I haven't read them yet.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Do you know whether they interviewed the whistle-blowers?

[Andrew Hayes]

I don't know that.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Do you know whether they interviewed all of the executive members?