Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 7th, 2023

[Graham Flack]

I'll give you an example from an audit from the previous auditor general.

It was around an indigenous skills training program, where the programming was provided to indigenous communities. The question was, what happened to the people five years later? We didn't have data on that, because the communities themselves were not able, necessarily, to track those individuals, as they had left the community. The solution was a highly complex, anonymized use of tax data linked to individuals in a very delicate transaction, in order to maintain privacy. That allowed us, at an aggregate level, to track those individuals and the results over five years. It was not a straightforward process. We had to comply with the Income Tax Act.

That's an example of a specific program where you can't just ask the community to collect the data, because, if the individuals have moved, they won't be able to. I find we have to do it at this transaction-by-transaction level, which is why Andy's team is always pushing departments on how they can improve each one. I understand why it takes time.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Could you briefly explain why, in eight years, we have not managed to put a plan in place? I'm actually being generous when I say eight years, because it's been almost 30 years since the government committed to using GBA+. Obviously, things have changed since then.

We heard your previous answers, but I would like to know why, several years later, we still haven't managed to implement this in all the departments.

[Frances McRae]

Thank you for the question.

First of all, I would say that there are a number of things that need to be done. There is no single solution to this challenge. One of the things the Auditor General mentioned in her previous report was capacity, skills, intersectionality, and disaggregated data, which we've talked a lot about.

There have been plans to address those gaps. I will stress, however, that the problem continues to evolve. Even according to the United Nations, intersectionality is certainly not a solution that can last for many years. It's always evolving.

The plans that have been put in place over the years have addressed the deficiencies to a certain extent. However, other gaps continue to be identified based on the current situation.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Many of you already know that I am an economist who specializes in incorporating environmental and social issues into economic analysis. I'll give you an example. The European Union, which is a much more complex structure than Canada, has been able to develop, in order to conduct cost-benefit analyses of all public policies, a methodology that provides weighted measures of various scenarios for infrastructure projects. This methodology is used for all projects in a country when it applies for subsidies to the European Commission.

How is it that the European Union is able to put this in place in about five years, when Canada is lagging on things that should have been put in place and that are, let's be frank, simpler?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I would ask you to be brief, please.

[Frances McRae]

We're learning a lot from the European Union. It certainly sets a very high standard.

That said, as the OECD has stated, Canada continues to make progress in this area. We are indeed one of the leaders in the world.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor again, for two and a half minutes, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you so much.

I'll ask my last question in relation to what I previously spoke about, which was the Office of the Auditor General's recommendations to each of you. On those recommendations, in many cases you replied to those recommendations with “continue to”. I'm trying to get to the intersection, I guess you can say, between understanding our function, which is accountability and understanding where those deficiencies lie, and ensuring that those things are properly addressed.

I can't tell for certain if replying to the recommendations under “continuing to” is in fact doing that, so I'd like to know specifically if you are already doing those actions that the Auditor General had outlined, which you said you would continue to do and that you're already doing. Why did the Office of the Auditor General find the deficiencies that were outlined in the audit?

Maybe we'll spend 20 seconds each in your responses to that.

[Frances McRae]

I can start with that, if you'd like.

From the perspective of Women and Gender Equality Canada, we are on track with our actions with respect to the audit. We don't dispute that we have more work to do, and we certainly have undertaken new initiatives as a result of the audit that are outlined in our action plan.

[Graham Flack]

I'll go back to the disaggregated data example. There has been progress. There has been progress even since the Auditor General's report, and we recognize that they're right and that there needs to be more.

We've taken concrete steps, for example, with the privacy notice to help move this forward, but it's going to take considerable time to get all programs through that process. “Continue to” is that there's been action in this area, but we accept the Auditor General's view that there's a journey that needs to continue to get to where we want to get.

[Kaili Levesque]

I mentioned continuing the deepening of rigour, and that's something that I wanted to come back to. It's really about the maturity of the process in and of itself and that deepening of rigour.

It's specifically further documenting how we do deep dives with Women and Gender Equality on individual feedback that is provided around specific policy proposals and the types of analyses that underpin that. It's also building up the disaggregated data capacity of the programs and policies that are under consideration, especially if it's a brand new one versus an existing one that has a significant database on which to draw.

Finally, I just think it's that continuous improvement that we bring forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Vecchio, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Thank you very much.

I really want to go back to the GBA+ and how it is being applied to legislation because, to me, when we're seeing the outcomes, I'm really concerned about the failures that we may be leading into.

I want to go back to you, Ms. Levesque. You talked about these being cabinet memorandums. With anything that has a GBA+, all of this is done, and it's confidentially owned by cabinet at this time. As legislators, we are trying to make the best decisions, but there's a small group that seems to have all of the knowledge.

Would it not be beneficial to us, as legislators, to know the ins and outs and the quirks that may be occurring in legislation, rather than just keeping it to a small group?

[Kaili Levesque]

With regard to the specifics around GBA+, we do our challenge function and it goes back to the sponsoring minister in each individual department as the legislation advances. The minister then brings that proposal forward to all of cabinet to consider, so that once it goes through, that is ultimately the purview of cabinet.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

I fully respect that, but, as legislators, how can we make laws when we don't have all of the information? How can we debate things if the knowledge is not provided to us but is kept in cabinet?

I note here, under the Privy Council and the Treasury Board of Canada, that under section 5 of the Canadian Gender Budgeting Act, there's supposed to be a report done annually. Now, in this report, I see some of it, but it seems rather high level. Do you get into the quirks of this, things that are not working when you're doing an analysis, or is it just providing information and not the solutions? Can you provide me some information on that?

[Annie Boudreau]

You are correct. We have already published two reports, and the third one will be published before the end of this calendar year. That report will be way more comprehensive because we have seen progress lately by departments in terms of data collection and capacity. We want to report on what we have seen—best practices—and we also know that there are still things to improve. We want to make sure that the document that you're going to find on the website will include those two components.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

I really appreciate this. As I've gone through here, I've seen some examples, but are there departments that we do not have examples for because we have not done a GBA+ on this when it comes to either the Treasury Board or making some legislation?

[Annie Boudreau]

GBA+ is mandatory for all Treasury Board submissions, depending on the program.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

So, “mandatory”.... Is it a check box, or is it actually very fulfilling? That's one of the biggest things. I have a lot of checklists at home, and I know when to buy my flour and milk. Is GBA+ just a check mark? How in-depth is it on the analysis?

[Annie Boudreau]

It is a big annex that departments need to look at with the perspective of outcome-based results. It's also part of the policy on results.

If it is a new program, obviously the analysis will be very strong and detailed. If it is a renewal of a program, the analysis will be less detailed.

It is not a check box. It needs to be done.

What I would like to say, as well, is that, sometimes, if we are not comfortable with what has been brought forward, we put conditions on the departments to come back to Treasury Board in six months or a year with more robust information.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

That's perfect.

I want to put back on my hat as shadow minister for women and gender equality, specifically because of the violence that's going on right now. One of the biggest issues that we're having is with regard to the violence against women that continues to be heightened. What sorts of things is this government doing when it comes to a GBA+? I'm looking at the legislation that does not match the actions, whether it is the justice system and the bail reform—that has been a bust when it comes to allowing perpetrators back on the streets—or just looking at the whole thing. Can you share with me what the government has done, when it comes to justice and bail reform, to ensure that women are safe?

[Kaili Levesque]

It's truly directed to the memorandum to cabinet as they come forward and within the legislative framework as it is tabled.

To answer your question about the committee stage, I will say that amendments are proposed that go beyond the scope. It actually then would have to come back to cabinet for a follow-on conversation and analysis that would underpin that as well.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

I appreciate that, but I can tell you that some of the legislation that has been passed by this government failed. Bill C-75, just as Mr. McCauley shared with us.... We are seeing perpetrators being released all the time. Share with me how that is safe for a child or person who is a victim of crime? I'm just wondering if it's being taken seriously enough.

I'm looking at Frances, and I know that she takes her job very seriously and does a great job. I'm concerned about the other departments, whether it's making sure that we're procuring things that women can wear when on the battlefield or making sure that the CERB program is equal for everybody across the country. As I said, the carbon tax was a good example.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mrs. Vecchio. I appreciate that. I'm going to consider that last question rhetorical.

We'll turn now to Ms. Bradford.

You have the floor for five minutes, please.