Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 7th, 2023

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Can you provide some examples of the kind of guidance you've just mentioned?

[Graham Flack]

Sure. We're fortunate to have Annie here, who actually manages the team that does this, so she can give you the real-world application of it.

[Annie Boudreau, Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat]

Thank you very much. It's a very important question.

We provide guidance to departments and agencies on a regular basis. We issue guidance on what we call the departmental plans, DP, as well as departmental results reports. They have to provide those every year. In between, we also meet with all people involved in that process to make sure that they understand the requirements that we have.

Since 2017, we have included in those two documents specificities surrounding GBA+. This has been sent for six years. It is very important, so they understand what is included. Again, we meet with them all the time and they have the chance to come back to us with questions and exchanges. It's a large community, and we are all learning from each other.

Those are really the two main pieces of guidance that we have. All of that is accessible to all departments and agencies.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Do you have an action plan for the guidance you're giving out?

[Annie Boudreau]

The guidance is an evergreen document. It changes every year. Every time we learn something new from PCO or something new from WAGE, we integrate all of that in the guidance. It is a document that is evolving all the time. As I was saying, since 2017, we have had specificities in the GBA+.

As well, we're going to be issuing before the end of the calendar year a report that will highlight best practices that we have seen in departmental results reports—the supplementary information table, SIT—with all the good examples of GBA+. We're going to be showcasing those examples of GBA+ to make sure that everybody is aware of what people are doing out there, and we can always have exchanges among ourselves.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

It's great that you're able to give examples and a chart that will showcase those, but how can we ensure that this continues?

[Annie Boudreau]

I really like that question, because my group is in charge of reviewing and challenging Treasury Board submissions. We review roughly 15 Treasury Board submissions every week, so every week there is interaction with departments and organizations to discuss what is missing in their plans, whether it is data collection, results or outcomes-based information.

We have the privilege at Treasury Board of being able to work with all of them and, again, to be able to make sure that with Treasury Board submissions—implementation plans and the policy on results—we have something concrete to show Canadians.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

That's good to hear.

This is all part of your response to the Auditor General's recommendations. Is that right?

[Annie Boudreau]

Yes, that is correct.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. McRae, can you detail changes in the uptake of GBA+ by federal public servants?

[Frances McRae]

Maybe just before I talk about some numbers around uptake, I'd like to talk about a couple of very specific examples that you asked about, around whether we are seeing intersectionality being incorporated.

MP Vecchio mentioned, for example, rurality. What we're working on to incorporate rural voices in the federal government is a collaboration with the centre for rural economic development. We're trying to ensure that our advisers who are living and working in communities are gathering local data, evidence, lived experience, to bring back into the federal public service to ensure that rurality is being considered.

We've had tremendous uptake in our training. We mentioned the GBA awareness week, where we had over 2,000 public servants online. We have well over I think 250,000 to 300,000 public servants, parliamentarians and ministers' staff who have been trained on GBA+ courses that we work with the Canada School of Public Service to deliver. We've prepared a range of new products for folks on intersectionality. We did some work with people around COVID to make sure that the programs that were being developed during COVID were also applying a GBA+ lens.

We are seeing tremendous interest all across the system in our work. We have no shortage of folks who are either referred to us from Treasury Board and the Privy Council Office or who come to us for advice and assistance in terms of building their knowledge base.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné now has the floor for six minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to all the witnesses for joining us today.

To the representatives from the Office of the Auditor General, thank you for conducting several audits on this subject. If I'm not mistaken, the 2022 audit is the third, coming after the 2009 audit and the 2015 audit. Gender equality is obviously a very important topic. This is about what the government can do to address the gaps that exist, whether we like it or not, in society.

In your last report, Mr. Hayes, you indicated that the audit identified significant gaps in several departments, particularly in the data they collect to track efforts and improve.

The audit report deals with another element that I would like to ask you to clarify. If I understand correctly, you revealed that some departments were not sufficiently focused on results and on improving gender equality within their organization and, by extension, throughout society.

In your opinion, what are the causes of these problems?

[Andrew Hayes]

I would say that one of the primary causes is the underuse of disaggregated data. In many cases, this data exists, but it is not sufficiently used in the analyses that are so important in developing and implementing measures and policies.

We also noted in our report the importance of training. Intentional actions would be one way in which several problems could be resolved.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Had these problems already been raised during your previous audit, the one done in 2015?

[Andrew Hayes]

Yes. When we look at the findings of this audit in light of the two previous reports, we see that some gaps are similar and persistent. I would add that the audit report tabled by the Auditor General a month ago also cites examples of the consequences of these shortcomings.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I will come back to the consequences later.

First, I would like to know why, in your opinion, the issue of including disaggregated data has not been resolved in eight years. What's going on in the departments?

[Andrew Hayes]

I'm not sure what the reason is.

Based on our observation of the situation, the information should be included in the analyses so that the people who have to make decisions have the best information possible to do so.

I don't know why the situation is the way it is. Perhaps Ms. Agnew has an answer to that question.

[Carey Agnew]

I would add that, seven years later, there are still departments and agencies that have not implemented a GBA+ framework. It consists of six essential elements—

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Can you name those departments, please?

[Andrew Hayes]

Can you repeat the question?

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Can you name the departments that have not yet implemented a GBA+ framework after all these years?

[Carey Agnew]

Yes. There was a survey, which was forwarded to us by WAGE.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Okay.

Can you name the departments that have not yet implemented a GBA+ framework? You just said that a number of departments have not yet done so.

[Andrew Hayes]

I think that's something that WAGE could give you more information on.

I would say that, in general, given all the findings listed in our report, departments can still improve their process regarding the preparation and use of GBA+.