Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 21st, 2023

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Is this really a good use of taxpayer dollars?

[Tobi Nussbaum]

Mr. Chair, I think it's really important to note the difference between our operating budget and our capital budget. I believe the line the member was referring to in the corporate plan was referring to the fact that we've had static budgets in operating. As I say, we have, thankfully, over the course of the last five years received additional capital funds, which have allowed us to start addressing the deferred maintenance challenges.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Now we're turning to Ms. Shanahan.

You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here today, because this is somewhat of a departure for the public accounts committee to be doing this kind of live investigative work over the use of taxpayer money.

I was interested to hear that the Auditor General does audit your financials each year. Can you share with the committee any findings, comments or suggestions that the Auditor General's office would have made at that time regarding this project?

[Tobi Nussbaum]

Mr. Chair, there have been no concerns raised by the Office of the Auditor General related to this project and, frankly, in the audit record over the last five years—no general concern that required action or follow-up by the NCC.

However, because it was extremely helpful, I do think it's important, and I appreciate the special examination that was done in 2017, which took a deep dive into the NCC and concluded that the NCC did not have sufficient capital funds to keep its asset base in good condition.

That's what led, I believe, Mr. Chair, the government to make a decision to offer additional capital funds to the NCC in order to start addressing its deferred maintenance challenges.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much for that, because that's exactly the kind of information that helps this committee in performing its work: understanding where these decisions come from, and where they get off track, quite frankly.

Earlier, you mentioned that this project was envisaged in 2013-14. That would have been under a previous government, yet, as you responded to my colleague, we know that money was authorized only in 2019. I've had some experience with the problem of deferred maintenance. I worked at one point with McGill University, and, yes, historic buildings that are still fully functional present quite a challenge to any administration.

Please share with the committee your thoughts on how the deferred maintenance problem actually became quite significant. I think of an expression that we used often at the time: "penny-wise and pound foolish". We don't want to spend the money today, but we end up spending a whole lot more tomorrow.

[Tobi Nussbaum]

Mr. Chair, I think the “penny-wise and pound foolish” adage is appropriate in a deferred-maintenance context. The evidence is very clear that if you don't invest sufficient funds in keeping your assets in good condition, there are real risks that you'll end up spending more if you postpone that work. That was essentially the conclusion of the Auditor General in the 2017 special examination, and it has been the reason why, at the NCC, we've developed an asset-prioritization index. The purpose of that is to really get at critical assets and prioritize critical assets so that we're doing everything we can to address the deferred maintenance of the assets that are at greatest risk physically but also at greatest risk of causing more financial costs for the taxpayers if we defer further the maintenance of and the work on those assets.

It's a very important principle. We take it seriously. We've developed processes and methodologies to do the best we can with the funds that we have to address the deferred maintenance, as I said, in the order of priority that makes the most economic sense.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this storage and maintenance facility also serves the official residence of the official opposition as well, Stornoway. Can you tell us how that functions?

[Tobi Nussbaum]

That's right. The staff in Alexis' team who are responsible for the maintenance and upkeep of all of the official residences are based out of the Rideau Hall operation zone, and they are using the service, maintenance and storage building for the equipment, vehicles and everything required for the maintenance of all of Canada's official residences.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Mr. Nussbaum, can you just give the committee a list, by order of urgency and priority, of the official residences or any official buildings under your purview that need to be repaired and looked after immediately.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That is a list you're looking for, Ms. Shanahan. Is that right?

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

If Mr. Nussbaum can respond verbally, that would be appreciated.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I suspect.... Do you have that at the top of your head?

[Tobi Nussbaum]

I do.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Well, I'm afraid you're.... Is it long?

[Tobi Nussbaum]

No.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Go ahead.

[Tobi Nussbaum]

The building that is most in need of deferred maintenance is 24 Sussex, the official residence of the Prime Minister. I believe, Alexis, that is one of.... Are there other buildings that are still in critical condition?

[Alexis Michaud]

The farm is in poor condition.

[Tobi Nussbaum]

We have other buildings in poor condition. We have a list of worst to best, and we categorize them through an asset-condition report that we updated in 2021. That information is actually publicly available, and we're happy to point—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'll pre-empt you, Ms. Shanahan.

Why don't you submit that to the committee, then?

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Where's Stornoway on that list?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That is your time. We will come back to that side.

Mrs. Vignola, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Gentlemen, are there other buildings on the Rideau Hall grounds that need renovating in the next five years?

[Alexis Michaud]

Many buildings on the Rideau Hall grounds need renovating. First and foremost is the 25,000-square-foot Rideau Hall itself.